Limitations

37

The innate intelligence of the body has no limitatiuons. Its expression through matter does but we do not know  where those limitations are and should not judge whether they have been passed or not. That is one reason why diagnosis and prognosis are not part of the practice of NTOSC.

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Posted in: Thinking Straight

This article has 37 comments

  1. Joe D. 06/14/2012, 1:28 am:

    Joseph,
    I notice your use of NTOSC, I know what it stands for but I’m wondering if there is also a TOSC????Thanks.

    • Tom 06/14/2012, 7:54 pm:

      Yes Joe, TOSC is the new group on facebook, I believe they also call themselves the membership practice! 🙂 😉

    • JStraussDC 06/15/2012, 10:40 pm:

      Joe, it seems to me that TOSC is a redundancy of terms at best, an oxymoron at worst. Traditional chiropractic istheir objective. The problem arises when they make traditional chiropractic what it was in 1895, 1927, 1961, 1970 or today. There is no doubt that BJ wouldn’t recognize it today.

  2. eric seiler 06/14/2012, 2:21 am:

    Joe,
    This concept of “limitations” is one I have puzzled over for some time. Perhaps you can clear this up for me, because as it stands, I find this to be one of the more glaring problems with either how the 33 principles are written, or how they are commonly interpreted. I fear however that this may turn into another epic battle, not unlike the one we’ve shared over ui, so please be forewarned.
    The problem I see here is immediately illustrated in your opening two sentences. You say on one hand that ii is limitless. Yet in your next statement you say there is an exception to this limitlessness which has something to do with matter. So is ii in fact limitless? Apparently not. In the 33 principles, ii it not described as limitless, is it? It is described as always being 100%, but this is not same as being limitless, as I will go on to suggest.
    I have read in various places and at various times how chiropractors talk about the “limitations of matter” as a situation where the matter is the limiting factor, ie the “unlimited ii” would accomplish more in the physical realm were it not something limiting about the matter with which it must work. Is this how you see it? If so, here is my problem:
    Intelligence is ALWAYS causative over matter.
    ui is causative over inanimate matter.
    Without the organizing quality of ui, matter does not exist.
    ii is causative in organizing universal matter into life.
    Without the organizing quality of ii, life/innate matter does not exist.
    Universal matter (the material building blocks of life) does not exist without ui
    Living/Innate matter does not exist without ii.
    In the dynamics between intelligence and matter, both animate and inanimate, intelligence is ALWAYS causative.
    Matter, both living and otherwise, are the effect of intelligence.
    Logically speaking, effects CANNOT limit their causation.
    And so, to suggest that ii is somehow limited by matter is in direct defiance of the laws of cause and effect.
    In the 33, ii is described as always being 100%, and I agree. It is always 100% OF WHAT IT IS, and that is an organizing quantity that is “by design” and “by intent” limited. Matter is not the limiting factor. It is the degree to which ii can organize universal matter in space and time that is limited when it comes to the ongoing organization of matter into life.
    Illustration:
    If you cut the limbs off a salamander they will regenerate. It is routine business for the ii of a salamander to organize matter into new limbs when needed.
    Cut the limbs off a human – no such luck.
    The matter that the salamander is composed of is the same matter that the man is composed of. The difference must therefore be in the “design” and “intent” that our Creator had in mind for what ii may accomplish within the human form. The limit is with ii. Even at 100%, ii is limited it what it can achieve with matter – not because of the nature of matter, but rather because of the “intentional” causal limitations of ii.
    Just as “God in man” does not make man God, “ii in man” does not make man invincible. Mortality is not a condition imposed by matter, but rather, by that which organizes it.
    Your thoughts?

    • Claude 06/15/2012, 2:01 pm:

      Eric,

      – I do not have a problem with any of the 33 principles…. so far. I have spent my life attempting to dismantle them and Strauss can attest to that. –

      – Your problem as I see it stems from your interpretation of universal intelligence as being God. Universal intelligence and God are NOT the same for me. So, I do NOT see any problem the way principle #24 is enunciated. –

      • eric seiler 06/15/2012, 2:44 pm:

        Claude,
        I would suggest you read my post again and not allow the last paragraph to dominate your assessment. This is about cause and effect. Would you care to comment on this aspect?

        • Claude 06/15/2012, 3:18 pm:

          Eric,

          I will and it will be my pleasure! 😉

          • Claude 06/15/2012, 8:58 pm:

            Eric,

            Here’s my comment:

            – Understanding that we cannot ascertain the major premise deductively, we must accept it as principle of first cause regarding CHIROPRACTIC. –

            – We are not obligated to “prove” or “demonstrate” our major premise. It simply is! –

            – The major premise is AUTHORITY of chiropractic philosophy and our start point. –

            – The universe is an effect of a cause. –

            – Nature cannot produce itself: (ex nihilo, nihil fit) out nothing, nothing can arise. –

            – Even though, to establish that there is a universal intelligence is SUFFICIENT our needs and for the 33 principles, pertaining to principle # 17, it is NOT necessary to define the CAUSE of universal intelligence, since principle #2 states: “The expression of this intelligence through matter is the CHIROPRACTIC meaning of life.” –

            – As you know, Eric, LIFE is certainly more than that. Yet, regarding chiropractic philosophy, principles are deduced from any principle previously stated. If at any point our reasoning is false or deductions incorrect that is the place where it should be changed. –

            – The major premise is our start point. –

            – After almost 40 years of having been one WHO chose to BE a student of the philosophy with a beginner’s mind, I fail to see ANY deductions of the 33 principles to be incorrect. –

            – Do you?

          • eric seiler 06/15/2012, 10:10 pm:

            Claude,
            Thank you for your willingness to engage here, but I find you are not yet really on the same page here with me. My concern over the “limitations of matter” has nothing to do with finding a cause of ui. My concern has to do with what appears to be a logical incongruity between our major premise and #24 and this is what I have brought to Joe/group for consideration. Assuming the MP is correct, and assuming that #17 is a valid way of looking at physical phenomena, then the way #24 is interpreted/written is, in my opinion, a problem. Please again review the following simple bit of deduction and give me your comment:
            Intelligence is causative over matter.
            Matter is therefore the effect of intelligence.
            Given the law of cause and effect, effects CANNOT limit causes.
            Therefore ii (cause) cannot be limited my matter (effect).

    • Steve 06/15/2012, 5:51 pm:

      I would have to agree with Eric on this one. Innate is only unlimited by comparison to our educated intelligence. As defined, ii. is limited by the universal laws. Thinking back to Claude’s example of the polar bear in the desert, although 100% ii could not adapt the bear fast enough to survive in that unnatural environment. Ii. is further limited by the matter in which it resides, in that ii. can not produce gills even if I am in the water every day. Ii. is also limited to living things and to processes within the body or you could say it is non-transferable.
      I do believe this is the danger of not separating philosophy and religion, too easy to cross the lines.

      • eric seiler 06/15/2012, 6:58 pm:

        Steve,
        Actually you really aren’t agreeing with me if you suggest that ii can in any way be limited by matter.
        Again:
        Intelligence is the “cause” of matter.
        Matter is the “effect” of intelligence.
        Effects cannot limit their causes (logically impossible)
        Therefore – ii cannot be limited by matter.
        The degree to which organisms can adapt is limited only by what ii can achieve, and what ii may achieve is by “design” limited.
        (No religion here if that is your preference. The concept works with or without. You can say God sets the limits on what ii can do in each species, or you can simply refer to it as “some kind of natural law.”)

        • Steve 06/15/2012, 10:12 pm:

          Hey Eric,
          I don’t recall the principle that stated intelligence created matter. If we are splitting hairs, the term is “within”.#1. Ui is in all matter …#8. The function of intelligence is to create force.(not matter) #20. A living thing has an in born intelligence within…..#21. The mission of ii. is to maintain…..#23. The function of ii. is to adapt universal forces….
          Matter limits ii. due to raw materials available and the physiological limits of that matter.
          Herein lies the problem, if you don’t separate religion and philosophy you get crossover of terms and ideas.

          • Steve 06/15/2012, 10:18 pm:

            Hey Eric,
            Where do you get Intelligence “is the cause” matter?

          • JStraussDC 06/15/2012, 10:34 pm:

            Steve, he gets it from his theological construct, that ui is God.

          • eric seiler 06/15/2012, 10:39 pm:

            Hey Steve,
            Did I say create? I believe I have have used the word “cause” repeatedly. I have no problem with “create” but lets just try and stick with the facts. Okay?
            You gave us a fragement of the MP, but the whole sentence needs to be considered.
            “Universal Intelligence Is In All Matter And Continually Gives To It All Its Properties And Actions, Thus Maintaining It In Existence.”
            It’s the “thus maintaining it in existence” bit that is important here – NO?
            Take away ui and matter does not exist.
            Similarly, take away ii and life does not exist.
            Now perhaps you might go back and read again my last reply to you and actually address my question rather than trying to play the “keep religion out” card…which does not even apply here!

          • eric seiler 06/15/2012, 10:47 pm:

            Hi Joe,
            Welcome to the party!
            Actually, I get it from the MP, as I just illustrated to Steve.
            “Universal Intelligence Is In All Matter And Continually Gives To It All Its Properties And Actions, Thus Maintaining It In Existence.”
            It’s the “thus maintaining it in existence” bit that is important here – NO?
            Take away ui and matter does not exist.
            And so Joe, please tell me how this does not mean ui is causative over matter?

          • eric seiler 06/15/2012, 11:35 pm:

            Joe,
            Knock, knock. Anybody home?

  3. don 06/14/2012, 11:27 am:

    Innate intelligence is always 100%.
    ii has no limitations.
    The interference is with the transmission of innate forces of the ii of the body.
    This interference is either physical or metaphysical.
    Physical interference is classified as the limitation of matter e.g. hard bone on soft nerve I am guessing here sorry.
    Metaphysical interference is the interference of the transmission of the mental impulse (not quantifiable …yet).
    This mental impulse is not an action potential (empirically studied).
    If the limitations are time and matter only, where does the metaphysical interference to the transmission of IF’s fit in?
    Is it a limitation of time or matter?
    Could someone clarify this for me?

    • Paulo Henrique Sugimoto 06/14/2012, 2:12 pm:

      Don, I’d say the interference, although in the transmission of the mental impulse (innate force), is ALWAYS physical (within matter).

  4. Claude 06/15/2012, 10:30 pm:

    Eric,

    Steve is correct. Intelligence is NOT causative over matter (pri.#5). 😉

    • eric seiler 06/16/2012, 1:48 am:

      Claude,
      “Universal Intelligence Is In All Matter And Continually Gives To It All Its Properties And Actions, Thus Maintaining It In Existence.”
      It’s the “thus maintaining it in existence” bit that is important here – NO?
      Take away ui and matter does not exist.
      You can say that intelligence is not causative of matter if you like, but then you have to scrap the major premise.
      How am I wrong here?

      • Claude Lessard 06/16/2012, 10:38 am:

        Eric,

        – Chiropractic is about LIFE here and now. The major premise is our start point. There is a CAUSE to the major premise that chiropractic philosophy sees as NOT necessary to raise the question of WHO it is and while it raised by people sometimes, it is NOT necessary to have it answered. –

        – There is a causative factor to the major premise of chiropractic. –

        – The major premise is an effect of a CAUSE. –

        – The major premise is the start point of CHIROPRACTIC. –

        – Chiropractic deals with life which is a triune having 3 NECESSARY UNITED FACTORS, namely intelligence, force and matter…… EQUALLED to each other. Without any one of these factors present chiropractic is unnecessary. –

        – Read and re-read and re-read and re-read principle #5.

        • eric seiler 06/16/2012, 1:12 pm:

          Claude,
          I have no issue with #5…which has nothing to do with my post here. You however refuse for some reason ( what’s up here Claude?) to focus on my question which is about #24 and the limitations of matter – about cause and effect in relation to intelligence and matter and how this principle as laid out in the MP, in #17 and in #23 appears to be breached in #24. Or is not? And if not, why? No one has addressed this. Where is Joe on this? You guys are supposed to be the deduction kings. Correct me if I’m wrong.

          • Claude 06/16/2012, 2:24 pm:

            Eric,

            Your assumption is erroneous. Intelligence is NOT the cause of matter. –

            – Intelligence AND matter in UNION necessarily IS life (pri.3). That is more than enough to practice the objective of chiropractic.

            – You desire to go beyond the major premise and I refuse to go there. It is not needed to practice the objective of chiropractic. –

            – That is as far as I go. I am back to the major premise and deduct from there. I see no false reasoning or false deductions in any of the 33 principles… so far. –

            – And YOU certainly are NOT convincing me of contrary… as of yet. 😉

        • eric seiler 06/16/2012, 2:41 pm:

          Ok Claude,
          Do me a big favor and see if you can simply address the following and nothing more:
          It says in the MP that ui maintains matter in existence.
          [“Universal Intelligence Is In All Matter And Continually Gives To It All Its Properties And Actions, ***Thus Maintaining It In Existence.***]
          Logically therefore, without ui matter will cease to exist.
          How is it then, by the language of the MP, that Universal INTELLIGENCE is not causative over matter?

          • Claude 06/16/2012, 2:52 pm:

            Eric,

            Without matter in UNION with intelligence life cease to exist (prin2 & 3). –

            – Chiropractic deals with life HERE and NOW which is triune (prin.4). –

            – Principle #5 says that intelligence, force and matter are EQUAL. to have 100% life NOT one better than the other for life to exist. –

            – Principle 2,3,4,5 are logically DEDUCTED from the major premise. –

            – More than enough for me. – 😉

        • eric seiler 06/16/2012, 5:46 pm:

          Claude,
          Indeed intelligence, force and matter need to be in union for animate and inanimate matter to exist. But the MP and #23 clearly indicate that intelligence is the causative agent in these dynamics. “Union” of some sort is an essential component of any causal relationship. If quantity A (cause) is not in some way connected to outcome B (effect) there is no relationship at all. #5 is simply an inventory of the components of the cause/effect relationship, as well as an indication of how the “quality” of the relationship is dependent on the full presence of each component. But as clearly stated in the MP and in #25, within this union, intelligence is causal.
          Why you refuse to admit this when it so plainly stated is quite puzzling. Are you a philosopher or are you a politician? ; )

          • Claude Lessard 06/17/2012, 1:16 am:

            Eric,

            I disagree with you about principle #5 being only an inventory. The triune is an effect of a cause and is a circular motion of relational activities called life. Life is an absolute. Either life exists or it does not. Principle #2 has demonstrated that matter expressing intelligence is life and matter not expressing intelligence is death. In order to have 100% life there must be 100% intelligence, 100% force, and 100% matter. 100% intelligence EQUALS 100% force EQUALS 100% matter EQUALS 100% life. All life has always the three inseparable parts of the triune. –

            – Chiropractic is about life, NOT intelligence and our start point in chiropractic is the major premise. Intelligence, force and matter, which is the chiropractic definition of life (pri.3), are effects of a CAUSE which is completely outside the realm of chiropractic philosophy. There absolutely NO need to MIX our personal beliefs with chiropractic. –

            – Chiropractic is strong enough to stand on its major premise and I am fine with that. 😉

        • eric seiler 06/16/2012, 6:57 pm:

          Claude

          Meant #23, not 25 in my last post!

        • eric Seiler 06/17/2012, 4:01 pm:

          Sir Claude,
          Happy Father’s Day to you, Joe and all of you who dig this blog!
          I have no problem with most of what you are saying here Claude, however there is a very clear hierarchy of causality that begins with the MP and filters through. The MP clearly indicates that ui maintains matter in existence and therefore is “causative over matter”. This is undeniably clear. And so one component of the Triune does not exist without ui. If we look at #8 “The Function Of Intelligence – The Function Of Intelligence Is To Create Force” – we see that not only is ui causative over matter, but also “force”. And so we now find that intelligence is causative over 2 components of the Triune. The third component of the Triune is “intelligence itself!”. And so we see that life is the effect of force (over which intelligence causative) on matter (over which intelligence is causative).
          Deduction:
          intelligence is causative over life.
          You may not agree with this, and that is all well and good. But if you do not agree, then you are disagreeing with the deductive reasoning of 33. This is why I have suggested on multiple occasions that you groovy cats in NTOSC write your own doctrine from scratch. Heck – I could write it for you! – one which focuses exclusively on the mechanistic and physiological aspects of straight chiropractic, and keeps all of the pesky metaphysics inherent in the 33 off of your tables! : )

          • Claude Lessard 06/18/2012, 1:16 am:

            Eric,

            Sometimes I wonder if you read what you write. 😉 –

            – Chiropractic is about life. There is universal life in all matter because all matter has motion which is a manifestation of force (pri.14). –

            – Chiropractic deal with force, the second component of the triune, which is METAPHYSICAL (mental impulse). –

            – There can be interference with the transmission of innate forces (pri.29). –

            – Interference with transmission of innate forces is always directly or indirectly due to subluxation in the spinal column (pri.31). –

            – The objective of chiropractic is to LACVS for a full expression of the innate forces of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD. –

            – As an NTOSC I am the one WHO chooses to practice the objective of our profession and I am very comfortable with the METAPHYSICS inherent to the 33 principles. –

            – Intelligence is NOT causative over life. If one component of the triune is absent, life does NOT exist. If matter does not exist intelligence cannot be expressed (pri.2). It is VERY clear that the triune of life is an effect of a CAUSE that once again is absolutely outside the realm of chiropractic philosophy. –

            – The start point of chiropractic is the major premise. And the major premise has a CAUSE which is impossible to be itself (ex nihilo, nihil fit). –

            – Perhaps it’s time for YOU, Eric, to follow your very own advice and re-write the principles the way you prefer, since you are the one WHO choose to BE puzzled with #1 and #24. I am more than satisfied with all 33. 😉

        • eric Seiler 06/18/2012, 11:53 am:

          Ok Claude,
          What if you and I just take a small steps here. Please consider simply looking at the following, and answering a simple question.
          The MP reads – A Universal Intelligence Is In All Matter And Continually Gives To It All Its Properties And Actions, Thus Maintaining It In Existence.
          It clearly says that ALL PROPERTIES of matter COME FROM ui and that ui “Maintains Matter in Existence”
          Please tell me how is this not a statement of causality?
          Please limit your reply to this question and to the MP alone.

          • Claude 06/18/2012, 1:58 pm:

            Eric,

            I repeat, it is not necessary to raise this question in our discussion of the major premise and even though you keep raising the question, it is not necessary to have it answered. Accepting the major premise as our start point and that it is an EFFECT of a CAUSE is sufficient to our needs. A universal intelligence is in all matter (intelligence and matter are in union TOGETHER from the get go). HOW universal intelligence got placed in all matter and by WHOM is unimportant to an understanding of chiropractic philosophy. –

            – Further more universal intelligence has OBVIOUSLY been placed WITHIN all matter to give to it all its properties and actions, thus maintaining it in existence. When “nature” provides ALL earth, ALL air, ALL water, ALL elements needed to exist, and the farmer, plows, plants, weeds, cultivates, harvests and sells it to the market, and you buy the produce for your family’s needs, and your wife cooks it and feeds your children, these could all legitimate “causes” for maintaining your children in existence. The answer as to WHAT the cause is, will differ depending from WHO’s perspective you’re coming from. Could be the farmer, the market, you, your wife, the ability of your children to eat the produce and absorb it or even from NATURE. Yet, nature CANNOT produce itself: EX NIHILO, NIHIL FIT, out of nothing, nothing can arise! Which cause is the real cause, Eric? In a circular motion of a living system, it seems that cause and effect are a RELATIONSHIP arising from its very own nature, namely, intelligence, force and matter (pri.4). Can you see that? I do!

            – This is more than enough to understand chiropractic philosophy and to practice the objective of chiropractic!!! 😉

          • Steve 06/18/2012, 5:30 pm:

            Hey Eric,
            Do you think BJ Palmer forgot to add the word(s) CREATED/CAUSED to the major premise, or might he just have used more appropriate words instead? BJ was know to be very critical of terms and meanings.
            Could it be possible that DD’s interpretation of UI and BJ’s interpretation were different? After all it was BJ who fleshed out the philosophy.
            If so then you might agree that he was saying intelligence is within the matter, matter “displays” intelligence. #8. The function of intelligence is to CREATE FORCE. It is this force that maintains matter in existence. Intelligence creates force, force maintains matter!
            As far as I can see our philosophy does not explain where intelligence or matter come from, but that they do exist and are related( by force).

        • eric seiler 06/18/2012, 3:37 pm:

          Claude,
          I like your analogies and I very much value your willingness to engage! However my purpose in this thread has nothing to do with what you or I believe, and everything to do with what the MP actually says as written! You can believe that intelligence is not causative over matter! But then you must agree to disagree with the Major Premise AS IT IS WRITTEN! The MP is clearly written as a causality statement… unless you can show me by the simple language therein, how it is not – which you refuse to do!
          Please forgive me, but I care not what any of the other principles mean to you if you do not demonstrate to me a clear understanding of the premise upon which they are based! And so again, unless you can demonstrate to me how the MP is not a causality statement (intelligence is causative over matter), none of your other points have any merit in a deductive discussion! I am fully willing to proven wrong here. So please provide your proof. Have at it – BUT again PLEASE limit your reply to the question at hand and the MP alone!

          • Claude 06/18/2012, 4:18 pm:

            Eric,

            Let me repeat:

            – It is not necessary to raise this question in our discussion of the major premise and even though you keep raising the question, it is not necessary to have it answered. Accepting the major premise as our start point and that it is an EFFECT of a CAUSE is sufficient to our needs. A universal intelligence is in all matter (intelligence and matter are in union TOGETHER from the get go). HOW universal intelligence got placed in all matter and by WHOM is unimportant to an understanding of chiropractic philosophy. –

            – Further more universal intelligence has OBVIOUSLY been placed WITHIN all matter to give to it all its properties and actions, thus maintaining it in existence. –

            – I am satisfied with HOW the major premise is written and have NO problem with NOT going into causalities of intelligence, or the causalities of ALL matter for that matter (pun intended! ) 😉 –

            – Further more, I can deduce from the major premise which I accept as “a priori” statement, our start point if you will, the following 32 principles and NOT one of them puzzles me. It is more than enough for me to understand chiropractic philosophy and to practice the objective of chiropractic. – 😉

  5. Claude Lessard 06/18/2012, 3:30 am:

    …. and Happy Father’s Day to you and to all fathers on this blog.

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