“Innate thots” don’t exist!

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This post should rattle a few cages: You cannot have a thought without words and the use of words requires the use of the educated brain. Therefore, so-called innate thoughts must come from the educated brain.

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This article has 58 comments

  1. David Suskin 05/27/2014, 5:17 pm:

    But you can have awareness without words, Joe.
    eg. You’re sitting in your house (anywhere), just being aware, of silence, of sounds, of the chair under you, no thoughts, just aware, and someone shouts your name. You reply. Where thinking when you heard your name. No you were not.

    Is awareness the use of educated brain? No it is not. Why can’t innate thots touch awareness?

    • David Suskin 05/27/2014, 6:01 pm:

      appended:
      Were you thinking when you heard your name. No you were not.
      Is awareness the use of educated brain? No it is not. Why can’t innate thots be more of an impression, a feeling, etc.

      If you’re sitting in a room, just aware, no thinking and you feel sad or happy, couldn’t that be an innate thot, or at least something like…

      innate thot >> awareness >> feeling >> translate to thought (Now it’s educated) but only after awareness or impression is interpreted or labelled. Yes? No?

    • Joe Strauss 05/27/2014, 8:10 pm:

      My mistake Dave. I was referring to and should have said “innate thot flashes”. Awareness and activity in the educated brain are synonymous. The innate brain is aware all the time. Otherwise you would be dead. If I was sitting in my house and being “aware”, I was awake and thinking. If I was not aware, , I was asleep but my innate brain was still aware and keeping me alive. If I am aware of silence, my educated brain is at a level of awareness, just as it is when I am asleep at night and the room temperature drops and I pull the covers over me but don’t remember doing it in the morning. It was an educated activity just not at a level that it was stored in my memory center, like a dream that you cannot remember or only partially remember in the morning.

      • David Suskin 05/27/2014, 8:29 pm:

        In your example of dreaming, so what if you do remember pulling the covers, at some point that information was passed from innate brain to educated brain, correct? Otherwise you would not remember it, yet it initiated from innate brain.

        There are many interfaces that are difficult to resolve, like where UI >> evolves (for lack of a better term), maybe manifests into II. Where organization becomes active organization.

        Anyway I understand that II works at a level where the interface is Alive vs Dead, and a thot is perhaps many steps above that so therefore some would question whether thots were intrinsically within ii? I think the evidence is their, in that, thoughts, while they occupy Educated Intelligence, must originate from somewhere and since Chiropractic Philosophy deducts from a Major Premise (existence) to life to the principles of life, with the principles of intelligence, force, matter integrated into a triune, Thought, which is Awareness with words is an evolving state of Consciousness.

        In the same way we say Universal Life, but it’s not really life (not active organization), Consciousness is there too, in the beginning, as a property, but not realized fully until greater and greater organization’d life forms if you will, could start to indicate it.

        Adaptability in essence is a kind of awareness of the environment internal and external. The more organized the life form, ultimately man, the more conscious and the greater the educated brain activity.

        When does reaction become awareness??

        Ok >> I’ve steered away from you initial question. Sorry, but maybe I’ve touched on my answer, maybe I’ve missed the point completely, but hopefully I’ve given some food for thought, from and ii selfish adapting need to an educated response from by educated and sometimes franetic and hyper analytic brain. Oy!

        • Claude Lessard 05/27/2014, 10:37 pm:

          Dave,

          Would you then say that the bile (which is chemical in nature,) that the liver produces, originates in the innate brain? Or the insulin (which is chemical in nature) that the pancreas produces, originates in the innate brain? Of course not. What originates in the innate brain, which is a metaphysical concept, is instructive information ONLY. Bile and insulin are by-products of the liver and the pancreas respectively. Thoughts (which are chemical in nature), that the educated brain produces, is a by-product of the organ called educated brain. Again, let me repeat, what originates in the innate brain, which is a metaphysical concept, is instructive information. NOTHING else!

        • Joe Strauss 05/28/2014, 12:26 pm:

          Dave, Claude’s reply explains a physical example/explanation very well. Here is a philosophical explanation: The messages from the innate brain are transmitted as mental impulses and apparently only the organs of the body (the ii of the organ) are able to translate that code into information that can cause the organ to work. We have no idea what the “code” is anymore than I know the code developed by Samuel Morse. We may be able to measure the output (Claude’s examples) but that is not the code that results in the physical manifestation. Even the brain waves of an EEG only represent a (partial?) physical manifestation of the code but not the code just as Morse Code is only physically manifested as dots and dashes but carries a metaphysical message in it. I guess BJ assumed that the code from the ib to the eb was written in the English language. I don’t know how he concluded that the ii “talked” in the language of Midwestern America. I am not belittling B.J.’s “thot flashes.” I just maintain that they came from his educated brain which activity was the result of mental impulses originating in the innate brain, not a “wee sma’ voice” from the innate brain. His explanation personifies the ii of the body, an error BJ, unfortunately, was wont to make.

          • David Suskin 05/28/2014, 2:04 pm:

            Joe,
            To your first point, I understand what your suggesting.
            I would assume and tell me if you disagree, that ii creates mental impulse to be translated by organs. (here’s the inquiry) >> organ ii passes that on to tissues, tissues pass that on to cells.
            In essence, II (mental impulses from their onset) >> ultimately are communicating (imparting life information) to cells, coded for cells, but thru the hierarchies of body>>system>>organ>>tissue>>cell.
            yes/no??

            With regards to your latter comment >> the topic of this post, innate will register it’s intentions, not thru thoughts (innate thots), but thru other conscious impressions (feelings, needs, symptoms (at times), eg. hunger, tiredness, etc.
            yes/no??

          • Joe Strauss 05/28/2014, 8:35 pm:

            Dave, I think that cellular, tissue and/or organ intelligence is only manifested when and if the ii of the body is no longer being expressed. Example: a transplanted heart (still having/expressing organ intelligence) can be kept alive under the right environment for a period of time even after being take out of a brain dead person (if done in a reasonable time). So a cell that is deprived of the ii of the body control, (by VS) has its own cellular intelligence causing it to function in an uncoordinated manner (for its own selfish good).
            We are now discussing metaphysical concepts which means there is no way of proving whose theory is correct except by reason. IOW where reasoning makes the most sense. I am perfectly willing to listen to others reason-able theories.

          • Claude 05/28/2014, 2:54 pm:

            Dave,
            Even though examples do break down, here’s one: –

            – Look at a hawk, gracefully gliding the sky, that’s using the law of gravity and the law of thermodynamic (thermals) scanning for its prey below. Those laws are coded in a way that ONLY the law of active organization (the innate intelligence of the hawk ‘ s body) can decode for the hawk’s needs. The educated brain of the hawk uses decoded mental impulses, by the innate intelligence of the hawk’s body, to adapt to its environment and survive. –

            – When the hawk located it’s prey, it uses it’s educated brain and the resulting activity is the “thought” of folding its wings and dive for the prey. The hawk uses the law of gravity and the law of acceleration (Newton’s second law) to reach a speed of 210miles/ hour. The mental impulses that the hawk uses are already decoded and ready for so called voluntary actions. It’s a choice that the hawk makes. It won’t dive for a moose… It will dive for a hare. “Thoughts” are the activity of educated brain which is the organ of adaptation to the environment.

          • David Suskin 05/28/2014, 5:31 pm:

            I get that Claude, and I know this is a discussion about Innate thots.
            I would assume we are in agreement that while thoughts might manifest from educated, influenced at times by ii, that they are indeed metaphysical which could lead into a whole other discussion, not necessarily Chiropractic Philosophy, am I correct?

          • David Suskin 05/28/2014, 8:45 pm:

            With transplants, let’s say kidney transplants, they remove the kidney from someone else, and then transplant it into someone else, without hooking up the nerves. The kidney survives and survives within the body, functioning. I’ve read the physiologically (not mental impulse I understand), the thoughts are that the nervous system up-regulates the function, but again, kidneys can survive, functioning in ones body, without a nervous system directly innervating it (of course with anti-rejection drugs, etc. ) How do you explain this Chiropractic Philosophically?

    • David Suskin 05/27/2014, 9:57 pm:

      append: once again – sheesh – in my first sentence(above) i say ‘In your example of dreaming’, I meant to say ‘ In your example of sleeping’. I’m sure there are some typos too. Hope to be able to nail those down eventually since we are having a discussion with words, and good communication is of the essence.

      I know I keep on dwelling on other points. Things like awareness, consciousness, etc. By all rights, you brought up this topic of innate thots, which I presume BJ had opinions on. Some might say that the 33 principles serve 1 thing and that is to ultimately determine why, what, where a spinal adjustment is given. And yet I know that we also try and discuss the what and how and why to live an ADIO life. That covers alot of territory. If Chiropractic Philosophy is suppose to give those answers, then I think it warrants the expansion of discussion of II and EI, as we can do on this Blog.
      I seem to keep pushing to discuss the theory or perhaps deductions that are finer grain to deal with how or why II evolved?
      Does II come from or out of UI? Does II thru Innate Brain develop into Educated brain (internal adaptation vs external adaption), and where are the interfaces between them. Can they be discussed and proven philosophically? Since our external needs supply needs that are internal, and our innate needs and workings seek the external to meet them, it would only make sense that THOUGHT is touched by ii. There is a meeting between innate thought and educated thought, I’m suggesting in the form of feelings, or drives, or dreams, or something!

      Also with all the II life forms (I know this is a redundant statement) on earth, and how life interplays with the ecosystem, I could imagine within ii, which we say is selfish, but maybe ii is not selfish and has a bigger plan knowing what is happening with all life and the interplay of all life within an ecosystem, that there is Innate Planetary Intelligence that leads to intelligent design. and WHAT IS SELFISH ARE INNATE FORCES – I’m suggesting ii is non-local, and innate forces are local. This all can be wrong, and philosophically not valid, but the reason I bring it up is because, within your blue books (I forge which one), you talk about intelligent design. Intelligent Design seems to incorporate relationships between life forms, not just the life form singularly. So I’m alluding to the perspective of Chiropractic Philosophy not only dealing in finality, at principle 33 >> directed only to the survival of one organism, but how ALL OF THE INNATE INTELLIGENT LIFE FORMS, INTERRELATE, and perhaps how does Subluxation relate to that, if at all on a global level, vs a singular life form to singular life form level only.

      Now I’m really off topic and I apologize. but maybe that is in tune with the complexity of discussing INNATE THOTS. Is innate intelligence truely local, or is it a global concept acting locally thru it’s forces and those forces must touch Educated Intelligence someplace, either on the Innate side of the coin, or the Educated side of the coin.

    • David Suskin 05/27/2014, 11:30 pm:

      Bile, Insulin are chemicals alright, and are measured.
      I don’t think anyone has ever measured a thought.

      I think your missing something here

  2. David Suskin 05/28/2014, 12:16 am:

    That’s strange. I never new anyone has ever seen a thought.

  3. David Suskin 05/28/2014, 11:28 am:

    Bile and Insulin are physical. You can see and measure them.
    Thoughts, while in ways can chemically be affected, I don’t think
    anyone has ever seen or measured a thought

    • Claude Lessard 05/28/2014, 6:02 pm:

      Dave,

      You see the insulin as physical MANIFESTATION (pri.14) of instructive information giving rise to MOTION with certain configuration and velocity of electrons, protons and neutrons. Insulin is motion of chemicals that are physical that you see… that’s your interface between intelligence and e/matter. It’s called instructive information (force) and its function is to unite intelligence and e/matter (pri.10). Pretty much the same as you see my thoughts right now on your screen. Thoughts are physically MANIFESTED by motion of e/matter, in this case using letters and sentences in English. Not that strange after all to see thoughts… is it not?-

      – WHAT we don’t see is what Joseph calls “the coded message”. We will never see that! It’s purely metaphysical. So, before the activity of educated brain, which is the expression of instructive information from the law of active organization of e/matter, in MOTION, mental impulses are decoded by the specific innate intelligence of the organ to produce its product. Liver produces bile, pancreas produces insulin and educated brain produces thoughts. You cannot see the bile until the liver reveals it to you. You cannot see the insulin until the pancreas reveals it to you. You cannot see the thought until the educated brain reveals it to you. All can be seen as instructive information MANIFESTED by MOTION of specific e/matter. By the way, the law of organization and the law of active organization CANNOT evolve being ALWAYS 100% perfect (pri.7). –

      – Once again the interface between law of organization or law of active organization and e/matter is instructive information (pri.10). –

      – Therefore, it is we WHO can choose to relate the concept from the point of view of intelligence (ALL ONE) or from the point of view of e/matter (living things and non-living things). Either one works as long as we do not MIX them together. It’s a hierarchy of complexities depending upon the configuration and velocity of electrons, protons and neutrons of e/matter instructed by intelligence.

      • David Suskin 05/28/2014, 6:32 pm:

        Claude,
        First of all I want to thank you for that detailed explanation. I will review it and absorb it. I think sometimes I’m digging and finding things that maybe distracting me from clarity but finding them never the less and adding them to my mix of concepts that stream thru my mind.

        With regards to thought, as you know I’ve thrown that around quite a bit, more in the realm of consciousness. I’ve seen in Joe’s books the reference to ‘Mind’ so maybe that touches more accurately to what Consciousness is and once again, the fact that UI + time >> manifested a conscious, self-conscious, educated being >> astounds me. Not only from UI to II (Life), but Aware Life… It would seem that the presence of human beings implies a beginning that had the potential to produce them, thus I see the development of a vessel that could finally reflect that Intelligence in a Self-Directed From. The Universe looking at itself kind of thing. But again I wander perhaps from Chiropractic.

        More specifically I do have some questions, duh! as I have reading Joe’s Blue Books and some thoughts have entertained my awareness. If you should decide to answer them, at least in part, I’d appreciate that, or perhaps for another time. I have asked this question(s) before but perhaps they got lost in the queue or they didn’t spring up any response. Here is basically the copy:

        Q#1: I understand cell ii, tissue ii, organ ii, system ii (perhaps), and Body ii and their missions. Subluxation interferes with the transmission of mental impulses.
        Of course, tons of references in Chiropractic Philosophy are made to ii affecting, thru it’s actions the TISSUE CELL. Anatomically and physiologically (which are physical not metaphysical constructs), nerve tissue and it’s receptors, etc. seem to be located within blood vessels, muscles, free-ending pain receptors??, with the capacity to control vasodilation vs constriction of vascularture or release of organ byproducts, and other physiologies that are not necessarily specific to the cell. I do recognize trophic affects but in general as the philosophy references anatomy, it’s as if in Chiropractic references, each cell had it’s own nerve to effect it.

        Anatomy and empiricism doesn’t necessarily support that concept. I believe, but I am aware of the Mental Impulse and how that differs from the nerve impulse and how that might translate into a different process, but I’d like it you could sort out this confusion.

        I have a theory. Here it is, tell me if I’m close, overly thinking this, WRONG, or whatever.

        Cell ii talks(MI – information) to Tissue ii talks(MI) to Organ ii(MI) talks Thru the Nervous System and thus communicates thru the whole body, maybe thru body ii (innate brain). There is an efferent side and afferent side (I understand the debate or situation surrounding afferent pathway >> Thus the concept of Cycles).
        I know cells exchange information with each other (non-nerve), but not necessarily (maybe I wrong), thru a nervous system. So I’m challenged to understand ii and how or if at all, it uses hierarchies from body to organ to tissue to cell, cell to body, cell to cell, and how this (you can explain it metaphysically if necessary) happens, or am I not making myself clear, etc.

        Q#2: This deals with emotions that lend themselves to let’s say distorted reflexed responses, like anxiety, habits, bad habits, (like a nocebo effect), and perhaps other over-reaching body reactions. I understand educated’s influence on innate processes (blinking vs closing eyes, holding breath vs breathing normally), but it would seem that something like anxiety which is a severe physiological reaction, OVER-REACTION, or psychosomatic adaptations, represents in a way Innate ‘Run A Muck’. I know that is not possible, ii being 100% perfect.

        So perhaps as a thought, Educated intertwines with habit, which is reflexive action (not innate), which is reaction, not response, and therefore the physiology of anxiety is really not an Innate process (excess sweating, breathing difficulties, heart racing, worry-obsessive thinking (chemical), muscle tension, etc.). It would seem that there are numerous body physiologies that are excessive, eg. overeating (psychological defense mechanism, or a reflexive habitual behavior in response to the neural-mechanics of habituation, perceptual distortions, personal sabotaging, etc.)

        PSYCHOLOGICAL Responses and its manifestations in peoples behavior would seem to involve alot of INNATE INTELLIGENCE reactions that are being overrided or distorted with the occurance of habituation or a generation of many systemic reflexes that involve Educated Intelligence.

        The subject of how Educated Intelligence combines with WRONG, inaccurate information can lead to tremendous body
        failure, and physical problems. The Human Condition

        In many ways it’s how ADIO perspectives become disconnected from peoples lives, where an OIBU perspective manifests It manifests as a disconnected organism, the human being, from its perfect internal mechanism functioning, or perhaps a disconnect between the metaphysical and the physical that leads into all of these imperfect manifestations, one of them being Anxiety(as discussed) and for that matter – VERTEBRAL SUBLUXATION.

        So those are my questions for now.

        And again thank you for your input, to me

        Dave

      • David Suskin 05/29/2014, 12:50 am:

        Hmmm interesting…. Instructive information being force. Correct. That our senses respond to into the phenomenon of sight??

        You mention that with perfection of ui and ii they can’t or won’t evolve. Are they related? The triune relates them?
        But in the beginning when there was no life. That was because matter was still forming and organizing until ii could use that matter and impart it with its active organization thus forming life?

        So ii is not an off shoot of ui? It’s concurrent but only manifests when the matter is available?

  4. Claude 05/28/2014, 8:03 pm:

    Dave,

    You posted: “Consciousness is and once again, the fact that UI + time >> manifested a conscious, self-conscious, educated being >> “. Which of the 33 principles include consciousness and awareness? What you call a fact, is in fact, NOT based on the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science. Therefore, your conclusion is based of something else and thus NOT chiropractic as you stated very well yourself: ” But again I wander perhaps from Chiropractic.” Yes Dave, you are wandering from chiropractic. –

    – Please remember that chiropractic is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from EVERYTHING ELSE and is inclusive of EVERYONE… regardless of race, culture, sex, creed or financial ability to pay AND is based on the solid foundational platform of the authority of the 33 principles of its basic science. The chiropractic objective the LACVS for a full expression of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD. –

    -…. regardless of effects (anxiety, psychological responses, habituation, symptoms, diseases,etc. involving educated intelligence.

    • Claude Lessard 05/29/2014, 12:46 pm:

      Dave,

      You stated: “So ii is not an off shoot of ui? It’s concurrent but only manifests when the matter is available?” –

      It depends on WHO you choose to BE in relation through which view point YOU will communicate in your conversations. If it is you WHO choose to communicate from the point of view of intelligence, then there is only ONE intelligence giving instructive information to maintain ALL e/matter in existence and SOME e/matter alive. The criteria being that e/matter expresses instructive information and is MANIFESTED by a specific configuration AND velocity of electrons, protons and neutrons by e/matter. On the other hand, if it is you WHO choose to communicate from the point of view of e/matter, then the law of organization (ui) maintains ALL general e/matter in existence (pri1)and the law of ACTIVE organization (ii) maintains specific e/matter alive (pri20-21). –

      – As long as you keep consistent with WHO you choose to Be and that it is you WHO choose NOT to MIX them together, WHEN you communicate in your conversations, you will OWN chiropractic. For the purpose of OWNING chiropractic it is good to understand both viewpoint and use them for clarification ONLY for yourself and NOT others… that would ONLY lead others to confusion. –

      – For the purpose of communication in conversation with others about chiropractic, and in order to have a solid foundational platform to stand on, it is the viewpoint of e/matter, that is the method of choice. WHY? The viewpoint of e/matter is based on the AUTHORITY of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science which gives rises to the chiropractic objective: LACVS (pri31) for a full expression (pri22-27) of the innate forces (pri28-29) of the innate intelligence (pri23) of the body (pri13-20). PERIOD (pri32). –

      – It is me WHO choose to tell the story to people over and over and over and over and over and over again in as many creative ways as doable in order to CREATE a NEW possibility that will RESONATE with them, MOVE them from point A to point B and that will INSPIRE them to do the same. If you WHO were to choose to do that… well, it would allow YOU to participate in the TRANSFORMATION of the lives of people and in the TRANSFORMATION of LIFE itself! Are you INSPIRED yet? 😉 –

      – PS: For e/matter to exist, e/matter MUST be united to intelligence by force (pri8-10-13-14). Therefore, ALL that exist relates to the triune and the triune relates to ALL that exist.

      • David Suskin 05/29/2014, 1:26 pm:

        Claude,
        You reference WHO and BE and kind of of reality that projects from the individual shaping the reality that exists.
        Are you talking about Quantum Physics topics here (Schrödinger’s cat )
        or Sheldrake’s Morphic Resonances here?

        Explain your WHO that offers options in reality of the 33 principles, or at least the presenting of ui/ii/ seperate or concurrency?

        Or have I missed something
        Explain-Go for it Doc

        Dave

        • David Suskin 05/29/2014, 2:08 pm:

          Don’t mean that you haven’t been going for it, or maybe
          that’s me WHO desires to be liked and when I WHO change
          from where I BE, then my message will be clearer, and
          respectfully allowing me and you to co-exist without need for
          approval. Huh?

          Anyway – or also when you say “CREATE a NEW possibility that will RESONATE with them, MOVE them from point A to point B and that will INSPIRE them to do the same.” >> Which law is this? The Law of Chiropractic Communication

          and >> Claude could you answer my question with regards to
          the scenerio where a kidney is transplanted into someone, hooked up with no nerve supply, and the life form lives. Where is ii relative to the kidney? Do they only have kidney ii which the body must adapt too, or perhaps it’s thru the vasculature hooked up to the kidney which is sending thru it’s nerve contacts >> the mental impulse to the cells of the kidney? I asked this question some comments ago. Perhaps you can find it and respond to it.

          Am I asking for too much? I don’t think so. I’m a fellow soldier and in need of a directing general, which you are so brilliantly performing as.

          Thanx

          continue…

        • Claude 05/29/2014, 2:14 pm:

          Dave,

          It’s ALWAYS about WHO you choose to be in the moment that matters. It called RESPONSE-ABILITY… and it begins with the willingness to BE cause in the matter of one’s life… it is about WHO choosing a life viewpoint and living from its context with congruency. The 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science are the absolute tenets from which the chiropractic objective arises. It is me WHO choose to practice the chiropractic objective. It is me WHO choose to live from that context. How about you? WHO do you choose to BE?

          • Claude 05/29/2014, 2:23 pm:

            Dave,

            Go to GSCS website and click on “Straight to You”. Read what I read this morning about “SUCCESS IS EASY” by Joe D. It will put all of this in perspective. –

            – What are your thoughts about the kidney transplant?

          • David Suskin 05/29/2014, 2:38 pm:

            >>Go to GSCS website and click on “Straight to You”. Read what I read this morning about “SUCCESS IS EASY” by Joe D. It will put all of this in perspective. –

            – What are your thoughts about the kidney transplant?>>

            OK I will,
            My thoughts are I think that many cells are controlled through chemistry in the blood and as long as there is a blood supply, cells in many cases will live. In the case of kidney transplant, a person is on ant-rejection drugs, which works, but of course poses potential immunity issues. Putting that aside, the kidneys filter and processes chemistry’s (renin-angiotension, etc.) >> um >> People survive,
            I presume Mental Impulse must reach it to coordinate it, but where, through afield, thru blood vessels, or maybe not… Maybe there is no coordination via mental impulse. If the body can adapt, then it will, a perhaps live, don’t know…. Would like to know HOW CHIROPRACTIC 33 PRINCIPLES ANALYZES THIS?

          • David Suskin 05/29/2014, 2:49 pm:

            Looked for >> GSCS website and click on “Straight to You”. Read what I read this morning about “SUCCESS IS EASY” by Joe D. It will put all of this in perspective. –

            found GSCS and Straight to You, but not Success is Easy ?? link please

            Thanx

  5. David Suskin 05/29/2014, 2:32 pm:

    Claude,
    I choose to be ME, but ME is not always in control of ME environment, or ME-Self, Me-aning >> ME – controlled by survival, by money, by trauma, by experience, by fortune and love.

    The struggle to not have a sad heart at times, is in conflict with my Philosophical directions. Incongruency I think is a manifestation, or feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    I understand RESPONSE-ABILITY… (I’m I involved in an EST program or am I a Scientology Pre-Clear?) Anyway

    I choose the Chiropractic objective but I don’t know if my habits or inner demons (can I call them?) – ahhh, what about Bad Educated Habits (BEH). I don’t know whether my BEH will. I need to get out of my own way and that’s been my dilema for whole long time, I can honestly say.

    But I”m looking again, and getting closer.

    HOW DOES MENTAL IMPULSE GET TO TISSUE CELL, WHEN NERVE TO CELL, EVERY CELL IS NOT ANATOMICALLY PRESENT?

    • Claude 05/29/2014, 4:30 pm:

      Dave,

      You asked: “How chiropractic 33 principles analyze this?” When a living body receivesa kidney transplant, it is in a permanent state of incoordination of action caused by interference with transmission of innate forces (pri29) since the nerve has been severed from the original kidney. The properties and actions of e/matter of the transmitting tissue has been compromised and is further limiting the limitation of e/matter of that body. The law of active organization will continue to adapt uf and e/matter without breaking a universal law (pri23-24) until the time of death according the the limits of adaptation of living e/matter (pri24). Regardless, a living body with a kidney transplant still needs chiropractic care for the remaining of its life.

      • Claude 05/29/2014, 4:40 pm:

        Dave,

        Regarding mental impulses and the cells, let us inquire, together without condemnation, into the nerve system. what is the purpose of the nerve system according to chiropractic philosophy?

        • David Suskin 05/29/2014, 5:24 pm:

          Well you handled that Kidney issue well and yes you pointed to your next question to me. The nervous system is specialized tissue that allows the expression of Innate forces, thus allowing for the coordinated function of each cell, as directed by the authority of innate intelligence. To transmit the Mental Impulse.

          We always say that inductive needs to support the deductive, for example in the case of kidney removal and then replacement, the nerves are severed. It would seem that the function of the nerve to the kidney has been altered.

          So when anatomy shows nerves going to organs, as a whole, many times to their muscular and vascular elements, and not to ALL of the CELLS, individually, how does this fact support the coordination of each cell, as though there was a single nerve for every individual cell.

          I believe I understand the difference between nerve impulse and mental impulse, between physical (stimulating vasodilation or constriction, or muscular contraction, or even free ending trophic influences – as sometimes discussed) and a metaphysical connection of Innate Force touching Matter (the cell), perhaps through nerve to organ ii to tissue ii to cell ii. At least that’s how I picture it. I am aware that there is much we don’t know about nerve physiology, BUT perhaps you can comment on my analysis Claude?

          Dave

          • Claude 05/29/2014, 6:25 pm:

            Dave,

            Read and re-read principle #23 with precise scrutiny. The answer is there.

  6. David Suskin 05/29/2014, 6:43 pm:

    I have read, and I will re-read x OO, I am looking. i see the function of innate intelligence to adapt universal forces allowing mutual benefit, and I accept this or should I say I understand this Life giving requirement. But why only the nervous system, because it too is alive as a system, thus innate MUST use it. It’s implicit? There is no other System that Lives with the ability to adapt other systems like the nervous system? Yet the endocrine system, with it’s chemistry’s (eg. growth hormones, corticosteroid hormones, etc.) greatly effect other tissues, but that is thru a mechanistic model (chemical), not like a nerve carrying a mental impulse?? which transmits Information, Information that can adapt and THINK?? at it’s level??

    What am I missing in #23 (yes I will read it and read it again and you obviously don’t have to give me the perhaps self-evident answer),

    I’m sure I’m not the only one who has stepped into this vicissitude?
    OY! grasshopper needs an epiphany

    • Claude Lessard 05/29/2014, 9:51 pm:

      Grahopper, look intently with your eye wide shut… principle 23 WHAT does innate intelligence adapt? For WHAT purpose? LOOK grasshopper! LOOK and you will see. 😉

      • Joe Strauss 05/30/2014, 1:19 am:

        Claude, I think you are watching too many old television reruns.

        • Claude Lessard 05/30/2014, 2:59 am:

          Joseph,

          ““Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future..” YODA 😉

  7. David Suskin 05/29/2014, 10:42 pm:

    It adapts a living organisms internal environment, taking universal forces and uses them as constructively as possible without breaking a universal law and within the LOM. Also innate intelligence communicates with educated brain through innate brain to adapt to it’s external environment through educated intelligence, if necessary.

    Innate Intelligence selfishly adapts the life it inhabits.
    yes/no?

    • Claude Lessard 05/30/2014, 3:07 am:

      Dave,

      Let’s go at it another way. WHAT is the FUNCTION of innate intelligence according to principle #23?

      • David Suskin 05/30/2014, 1:38 pm:

        But again, just to remind you, my question originally dealt with:

        ‘So when anatomy shows nerves going to organs, as a whole, many times to their muscular and vascular elements, and not to ALL of the CELLS, individually, how does this fact support the coordination of each cell, as though there was a single nerve for every individual cell.’

        There are so many references in the philosophy, and the chiropractic literature stating a control or coordination of each individual tissue cell through the nervous system. My inquiry, philosophically (33 principles), and thru the evidence of I guess science?? is IS THAT SUPPORTED?

        Ok so principle 23 >> I gave you the function of innate as stated

  8. David Suskin 05/30/2014, 1:09 pm:

    The function of Innate Intelligence is to adapt universal forces and matter for use in the body, so that all parts of the body will have co-ordinated action for mutual benefit.

  9. Claude 05/30/2014, 2:50 pm:

    Dave,

    I have not forgotten your original question. It is you WHO will answer it for sure. 😉 The function of innate intelligence is to adapt universal forces AND e/matter… WHY do you think innate intelligence adapts e/matter and not just universal forces, as you mentioned before when you posted: “I have read, and I will re-read x OO, I am looking. i see the function of innate intelligence to adapt universal forces allowing mutual benefit” and later you posted: “It adapts a living organisms internal environment, taking universal forces and uses them as constructively as possible without breaking a universal law and within the LOM. ???

  10. David Suskin 05/30/2014, 3:49 pm:

    How about, The Nervous System, as it is can be adapted >> it is after all part of the organism >> So II adapts the Nervous System, the conduit which IForces Travel over, It adapts it TOO contact the Tissue Cell.

    Even though anatomically and reflexively it does one, perhaps limited thing, II adapts it do what it requires, within the LOM. That being said, Tissue Cells are affected (touched), but not necessarily through a physical understanding. It’s a metaphysical process (Innate Forces). Cell’s need coordination. We can have theories how this happens, but the Philosophy states that it does, IT MUST! so that’s it. (A BIT OF A REACH MAYBE??) close? no cigar?
    yes/no?

    That’s saying the the nervous system is adapted too by ii, even though it’s the pathway of it’s force transmission. And what are the limitations of matter? We really don’t know. But they do exist, that’s why ADIO >> because to guess, is to not fulfill out objective which is LACVS…. Period???

    yes/no?

    What if ii was in the tissue cell, and mechanistic was outside the tissue cell >> Does the philosophy definitely say that ORGANISM LIFE (The body) is the same LIfe wise, II wise, having it’s own ii, vs the TISSUE CELL which is the first living thing within the body??

    33 Principles definitely says Man – The Organism is Living??? I know it sound foolish, but >> Yes Man the organism has the signs of life, like a cell??? Does it require more???? >> Confusion…

    I play devils advocate with myself…

    Anyway Claude… What do you think about my 1st, non-rambling point.
    Sorry for the chatter

    Dave

  11. David Suskin 05/30/2014, 6:01 pm:

    cont…
    your question:WHY do you think innate intelligence adapts e/matter and not just universal forces

    answer: Universal forces are created by intelligence upon/in/on e/matter.

    e/Matter itself comprises (electrons, protons, nutrons, subatomic) >> if e/Matter (Energy) can be adapted without breaking a universal law, then ii can, thru innate forces influence e/matter (Energy) and influence it. The Mental Impulse being a metaphysical reality and it originating perfectly, set’s up to do what it needs to do to adapt. Perhaps the e/matter has other ways to manifest this intelligence perfectly, within LOM, whatever that might be, all is not known about how that works in physical reality (eg. II to MI to IForce to e/Matter)??

    that was my 2nd attempt >> kind of the same as the first…

    and/or

    Since the Nervous System is suspected to do what it does (is that theoretical?). I know it is p#28 but, that’s really an inductive logical principle. yes/no? so it might not be the only system that is conveying the mental impulse?? or like I said, being that a nerve, being a living cell, and the only living cell in the body who’s job it is, is to pass information as it’s primary directive, one would deduce that transmits MI. But I still get stuck on this from the point of Deducting it within the 33 principles???

    What’ya think. I seem to be spinning in circles

    • Claude Lessard 05/31/2014, 3:25 am:

      Dave,

      You are well on your way to clarify your conflicts. I stand for you. Carry on. ADIO. –

      – PS: Is active organization the same as coordination of action? The answer may help you carry on… ADIO.

  12. David Suskin 05/31/2014, 12:00 pm:

    Morning Claude,

    II Mission – active organization:The mission of Innate Intelligence is to maintain the material of the body of a “living thing” in active organization.

    II Function – coordination: The Function of Innate Intelligence – The function of Innate Intelligence is to adapt universal forces and matter for use in the body, so that all parts of the body will have co-ordinated action for mutual benefit.

    So the answer is no – if Mission and Function have different meanings. I don’t know what the difference is although they ARE different principles. I could look up the definition(s), but I’ll wing it.

    Mission – Is more of the Grand Purpose. A mission has a beginning and an end.

    Function more descriptive of the process. Mission is function too, so in this case I’d say it’s kind of a function(child) within a larger Function (parent) >> Thus

    The mission of Innate Intelligence is to maintain the material of the body of a “living thing” in active organization by adapting universal forces and matter for use in the body, so that all parts of the body will have co-ordinated action for mutual benefit, thus fulling it’s Mission.

    yes/no?? >>

    I think, that when we say II uses the nervous system, we are not talking about the nervous system as it’s biological function. We are talking about the nervous system with it’s metaphysical function.

    Just like innate brain, and educated brain are really metaphysical constructs, (more innate brain).

    But again it would seem that things get a bit mixed up (physical and metaphysical), when we’re talking about brain, nervous system, and CELL. Maybe because 33 principles are the principle of Chiropractic and how it relates the universe and life to it’s purpose or Objective. Being that Life comprises really 2 forms of life in a human. The cell life as a whole, and the body life, me, you, us, humans being alive.

    The units of life are body(multicellular), and cell. UI and II as applied to these forms is a philosophical construct, with metaphysical elements, But again there is this interface, even with ADJUSTMENT OF THE SPINE >> physical constructs within metaphysical terms and visa versa… hmmmm >>> Where is the bridge, the interface?
    why was Chiropractic Philosophy constructed and then deducted to the spine, the nerve, the subluxation, that this was where the interference took place? Was that a discovery from DD Palmer? Is it a philosophy based on some higher order God to Man given to DD, developed by BJ, and continually reexamined by man, therefore Philosophy, Science and Art?

    Vitalism comes first and then we need an educated explanation, which is not perfect, but II takes it and uses it, based on the principles, not necessarily having to do with the Adjustment, but educated, we say yes, and combine that with ADIO, you have a 33 principle life.

    The adjustment could be a metaphysical situation, where the chiropractor knows when to begin and when to stop.

    Something there? yes/no??

  13. Claude 06/01/2014, 1:13 pm:

    Dave,

    Let me save you a whole lot of work. Where is interface between inorganic and organic e/matter? If you can answer that question, then you will clearly see the bridge between the the law of active organization and the nerve system. If you cannot,… then it is you WHO can choose to accept the AUTHORITY of principles 1, 16, 20 and 28 of chiropractic’s basic science. 😉

  14. David Suskin 06/01/2014, 2:57 pm:

    I’m ready for clearity!

    The primary difference between organic compounds and inorganic compounds is that organic compounds always contain carbon while most inorganic compounds do not contain carbon. Also, almost all organic compounds contain carbon-hydrogen or C-H bonds.

    The interface is living vs non living. Living things are made up of organic matter. ummm
    The interface is ii. If you remove ii, active organization, the life dies. Many of the organic molecules will become elemental, inorganic when energy is pulled out, burned, or broken down by other ii’s and reconfigured into their living matter.

    The only bridge I see is disintegration. Chapter oversimplification book higher ground by Strauss. A great read by the way

    Come on Doc! What’s YOUR answer? You can bring this horse to water and make him drink!

    Answer is?________________________________

    • Joe Strauss 06/01/2014, 4:42 pm:

      Dave, could you ask Professor Lessard to make this a multiple choice question? Then I would at least have a better chance at answering (guessing) correctly. Otherwise I have no idea what he is asking or even talking about. Even asking it as a true or false question would increase my chances of answering correctly 50% better than what they now are.

  15. David Suskin 06/01/2014, 5:49 pm:

    Yes Joe,
    I tried yes/no >> true – false format but that hasn’t worked.

    As you might have read,
    ‘disintegration. Chapter oversimplification book higher ground by Strauss.’

    Joe – This concept of Disintegration, was very very educational to me, how it’s used, gains tremendous credibility with usage, but breads inaccuracy to a fault, and how Chiropractic Philosophy, deductive processes, exists to deal with complexity. Very enlightening.

    Joe? Where did you get all of this knowledge? Philosophy 404? – You are a well read man!

    I’m still wrestling with II-cell, II-body, and how the Nervous System, Philosophically, 33 principle wise, Was designated as the receptacle, the vessel for communicating the Mental Impulse, Innate forces. Claude is leading me along to show where a definitive connection can be made, with this philosophical-anatomical-physiological reference.

    I’ve tried to suggest answers (see above). I know you gave me an answer some time ago (eg. decapitation), but I’m still not settled. How do we know it’s not let’s say the acupuncture meridians that II-body is not using, or something else?

    So many references are made to Mental Impulses communicate with each individual Cell. Coordination of cells, active organization of matter >> in living tissue. HOW? WHERE? –

    I keep asking where is the interface?
    I’ve suggested It’s a metaphysical interface, and I can almost accept that, plus some other crazy-hair pulling (I have non anymore) ideas, thoughts.

    Certainly your thoughts on disintegration shows Chiropractic’s unique approach to a Complex Subject.

    I’ll get an answer from someone, maybe that someone WILL BE ME.
    But I AM OPEN TO A COMPLEX ANSWER, or a step by step showing me the How and Where Answer of my Question(s)

    Love Your Books – as you know.
    Dave

    • Joe Strauss 06/01/2014, 9:48 pm:

      Dave, Here’s an analogy (only an analogy so it is not perfect). I am teaching a class of 30 students. I am analogous to(A2) the ii of the body. The class is A2 the body and the individual students A2 the cells of the body. The educated intelligence of every individual student is A2 cellular intelligence of each cell in the body (a small body with only 30 cells!) If every student is focused and listening to me we have coordinated action or EASE. We are all together in thought and I am the authority, in control. However, any student may for one reason or another stop listening to me eg. Mind wandering, day-dreaming, thinking about lunch, etc. That’s A2 a vertebral subluxation causing lack of unity of thought A2 incoordinated action or DIS-EASE. Then I say something that sparks his interest (probably has he word sex in it). That is A2 an adjustment and he stops “mind wandering” and once again listens. The entire class is now once again under the control of the instructor/authority A2 restoration of EASE.
      If the student/cell does not once again or eventually get under the authority of the instructor /ii of the body and instead because of his selfish educated/cellular intelligence becomes disruptive and a threat to the well-being of the rest of the class/body, I will physically remove him (since it is my analogy, I am 6’6”, weigh 220 pounds and am all muscle….stop laughing Claude, I can be anything I want in my analogy!). The student is now acting as a cancer. Here is the principle (not one of the 33). I wish I could say that I thought of it: Authority without freedom is tyranny (never happens in the body because the ii of the body is a perfect, benevolent dictator) . Freedom without authority is anarchy. (always happens in the body when there is a vertebral subluxation. Hope this helps or at least gives you something more to think about.

      • David Suskin 06/01/2014, 10:24 pm:

        Let me understand this cause this is huge. Actually it’s a reversal. It’s not the body controlling the cells. It’s the cells ii listening for the body ii. Yes/no.
        All is well. They do what they need perfectly and coordinated cause that’s their mission. Cell ii. And if they step out of line. Body ii knows and uses it’s physiology with LOM and whips them into shape. Removes them. Gets them the body ii doctor. Whatever. Without that body ii. The cells. The organ. Gets out of control. Can’t fullfull it’s organ mission. And a health decline. Of body and tissue cells. Adjustment. Let body ii express itself and if possible takes the right action the intelligent action the coordinating action with those screaming disruptive out of control tissue cell. If no LOM and or enough time. The ii expresses more and more. There’s more support. More and more coordination in healthier matter. And a climb in the potential and expressiveness of a perfect individualized ii.

        It’s the LISTENING of the cell ii to the body ii and the action of the ii on the cells. In them both being aware of each other. The coordination takes

        • David Suskin 06/01/2014, 10:30 pm:

          Place. Something like that.
          Joe!
          I was thinking smart body to stupid cell.
          That’s wrong. It’s smart body to smart but subservient cell. Until they get out of hand cause of coordinating ii body ii being subluxated. Or innate need eg. Rest. Exercise. Healthy living not being there

          Yes/no
          Ps. I’m texting from my phone. Oy!!!!

          • David Suskin 06/01/2014, 11:03 pm:

            Joe.
            I think this gets to the efferent afferent cycle discussions. That innate knows all. That’s the body ii to cell connection. But the efferent side is the ii force side. That’s the subluxation side. (I do have my thoughts about how the afferent side is affected too). The active organization and coordination is the teacher controlling the classroom. Anarchy is a no no
            That’s dis ease.
            Yes/no? Maybe? 🙂

  16. Claude 06/01/2014, 8:05 pm:

    Dave,

    Re-read what Joseph posted On 5/28/2014, 8:35pm., and that horse may drink now. 😉

    • Claude 06/01/2014, 8:10 pm:

      … specifically the first sentence!

  17. David Suskin 06/01/2014, 9:16 pm:

    Joe said: I think that cellular, tissue and/or organ intelligence is only manifested when and if the ii of the body is no longer being expressed

    That’s the bridge between active organization and nerve system?

    Your question to me:interface between inorganic and organic e/matter? If you can answer that question, then you will clearly see the bridge between the the law of active organization and the nerve system.

    I’m drinking. But it’s not water. 🙁
    What I understand what Joe is saying is if the nerve doesn’t integrate into the organ or to the tissue cell then the cells own ii runs it.

    1. How does explain biological nerve hooked up to a cell?
    2. How does philosophically ex

  18. David Suskin 06/01/2014, 9:26 pm:

    Sorry I hit my submit button
    2. How does that philosophically explain that active organization or the mission of ii uses the nervous system in the first place
    3. What question are you answering that is allowing me to quench my thirst. Finally?
    4. Am I being STUPID? Is that WHO I’ve decided to BE?

    Answer only 1-3
    I have an idea Claude. Why don’t you tell me in a series of words, sentences the path of ii to the tissue cell. Any tissue cell. Thru the nervous system. Vibrations, impressions and all

    Thanx 🙂

    • Claude 06/01/2014, 10:50 pm:

      Dave,

      Surely that horse doesn’t want me to drink the water for him… does he? 😉 –

      What do you think of Joseph’s A2 class analogy?

  19. David Suskin 06/01/2014, 11:14 pm:

    If what I said paraphrases it pretty well. Or accurately. I think pretty darn good. Better than that.
    If I’m still off base. Then. I’m gonna have to get you or joe on the phone so I can more easily understand and so you can hear my unique as yours is. Vocal presence.

    As an aside. And you guys know I’m coming out of retirement and trying to do it right. I’ll get there.
    I tell my patients about ii. Patient x said. You should give seminars on this doctor s! That’s my plan. Chiropractic philosophy lives in David Suskin more and more. Particularly when my understanding becomes or is becoming stronger. And I thank you.

    Now outside in. Straighten me out! Adio.

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