DIS-EASE

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In my understanding of the Palmer philosophy, it seems to me that BJ saw DIS-EASE as synonymous with an interference with the forces of the innate intelligence of the body, as incoordination or a lack of active organization. When we say active organization, we are referring to the expression of innate intelligence’s forces through innate matter. All matter, living or non-living has organization demonstrated by existence, the manifestation of the principle that we call universal intelligence. It is only when the matter acts in a manner that benefits the whole, rather than just manifesting its intrinsic qualities with no higher purpose,( A rock can never be anything more than a rock.) do we say it is in active organization, in contrast to matter that merely, manifests only universal intelligence (maintaining it in existence). When living matter demonstrates less than perfect, absolute organization, we say it is in a state of DIS-EASE which is often imperceptible to present technology. When it ceases to manifest any active organization , we say that it is no longer alive. I think that the important point is that DIS-EASE has nothing to do with sickness and disease. It was presented this way in the original Palmer model of the 33 principles. It is unfortunate that the two terms, disease and DIS-EASE, are so similar. It was only when people mistakenly began to associate the vertebral subluxation, the cause of DIS-EASE with the cause of medical conditions that the confusion became great. But the Palmer position, demonstrated by or in the 33 principles was always that DIS-EASE existed in the presence of, the absence of, or coincidental with, but not directly related to the medical model of disease or its cause.

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This article has 66 comments

  1. Steve 07/22/2014, 1:36 pm:

    Let me ask you then, can you have disease in the presence of ease? Can there be disease when all parts of the body are working correctly and working together?

    • Myron Brown 07/22/2014, 11:11 pm:

      I believe that the question, “Can there be disease when all parts of the body are working correctly and working together?” makes an unreasonable assumption that lack of dis-ease implies that the individual is impervious. Such a state surely can never exist, nor should the goal of correcting vertebral subluxation (VS) be to prevent or heal disease. Living without VS makes sense because good nerve supply is preferable to poor nerve supply regardless of the presence or absence of disease. Our friend Thom Gelardi made the observation that an individual can be cleared of his/her subluxation, but if held under water for half an hour would still be dead.
      The point is that what chiropractic offers is the opportunity to live without the interference of VS, not an assurance about living life with or without disease.
      Joe points out that the two terms, “disease” and “dis-ease” are too similar. In that he is right. Perhaps we should reconsider perpetuating the use of the term, “dis-ease.”

      • Steve 07/23/2014, 9:51 pm:

        Thank you Myron,
        The therapeutic rut is so deep only constant vigilance will keep me out.
        Then what would you suggest we put in place of dis-ease as the result of subluxations?
        I like BJ’s term tissue insanity but that opens another can of worms.

      • Joe Strauss 07/24/2014, 5:56 pm:

        Thanks for the input Myron. I have never liked the use of DIS-EASE. Before computers it always seemed to come at the end of a sentence, that’s why I began using all caps as opposed to disease. But you are right, we probably should reconsider using the word.

    • Joe Strauss 07/24/2014, 5:11 pm:

      Steve, the simple answer is YES. Working correctly/together may be manifested as fighting off an invasive eif, somebody sneezed “germs” in your face. The md says you have a disease the common cold, coryza. To him that is a limitation of matter. The only limitation that we address is the inability of the ii of the body to transmit mi from BC to TC due to VS. That may occur with or without the presence of disease. To say differently is to argue that the only cause of disease is the cause of DIS-EASE. I don’t think we can draw that conclusion from Principles #30,31, although traditional chiropractic holds or at one time has held that position. I don’t think we can make assertions about limitations of matter except relative to the subluxation. There may be L of M due to trauma, surgery, genetics, etc. We just do not know and it is not part of our philosophy to guess since we do not address disease.

      • David Suskin 07/24/2014, 5:45 pm:

        Joe,
        I believe I read this in ‘Practice Building’. An interesting point.
        You stated I believe, that even if a person held an adjustment for ~17 minutes, the benefit that that had on SURVIVAL value was a positive process. And ya know, that’s interesting. VERY interesting. Receiving adjustments, that might not hold that increase a SURVIVAL value, (A Learned adaptation that perhaps in time, through memory, can overcome a LOM?? I might be reading into this too much, BUT, wouldn’t THAT be an OI manifestation of a positive effect of being Adjusted?
        SURVIVAL values, and memory being an attribute of an OI integration into an ADIO reality or process. Kind of the Disease of the Dis-ease being a treatment that comes from and adjustment, thru the Educated memory helping to overcome a LOM that innate (present time) will use?

        Have I talked in circles here?

        or

        is it Adjustment held for 17 minutes yields a positive SURVIVAL value. The loss of the adjustment, yields a negative SURVIVAL VALUE, thus — no effect or still negative (non-subluxated for 17minutes, Subluxated for eg. 72 hours >> till the next adjustment??

        But maybe not. Survival value might be more of a light that shows the way. When the light is gone, there’s no more progress, but no slipping back, just a stand still, until the next adjustment. Then another forward movement of survival value. Loose the adjustment >> Stand Still…

        Anyway, your thoughts fellow philosophers 🙂

      • Claude Lessard 07/25/2014, 2:47 pm:

        Myron, Joseph, Steve Jones, Steve Tullius and Richie,

        Last year we posted extensively regarding DIS-EASE being at the start point of VS since it is the TRANSMITTING matter that is affected and revert the mental impulse (IF) with intelligent direction into a nerve impulse (UF) without intelligent direction. This lack of EASE of the TRANSMITTING matter further increases the limitation of matter of the LIVING body. At that time we, together without condemnation, concluded the result of the lack of EASE of the TRANSMITTING matter was the CAUSE of incoordination of action of the parts of the body, violating the principle of coordination (pri.32). –

        – This observation is consistent with principle #30. If you notice, principle #30 states: “Interference with the transmission of Innate forces causes incoordination OF dis-ease.” This implies that DIS-EASE is the CAUSE of incoordination of activities of the parts of the body at the end point, which is the part receiving the de-coded impulse (from mental impulse with intelligent direction (IF) to nerve impulse without intelligent direction (UF).). There is NO need to even change one word of principle #30. –

        – Yes, the Palmers, RWS, Reggie, Strauss, did use the terms interchangeably throughout their writings. Perhaps, together without condemnation, we now come to a moment of history where further clarifications are necessary for the evolutionary process of the philosophy, thus clarifying a greater understanding of chiropractic philosophy. The good news is that the 33 principles of Chiropractic’s Basic Science are ABSOLUTES and continue to be its solid foundational platform. –

        – I humbly submit that this clarification be added to the lexicon.

        • Steve 07/25/2014, 4:38 pm:

          In a quick internet search of a dozen sites 9 said “incoordination OR dis-ease”, 2 said OF and 1 said AND. Stephenson says OR.
          Art. 364. THE CAUSE OF DIS-EASE. Principle No. 30.
          Interference with the transmission of Innate forces causes
          incoordination or dis-ease.
          Interference with transmission prevents Innate from adaptating
          things universal for use in the body and from coordinating the
          actions of the tissue cells for the mutual benefit of all cells.
          Accordingly, the universal forces wear or injure the tissue cells, or
          cause them to act inharmoniously and thus injure other cells as well.
          When a cell is injured, worn down, or “out of condition,” it is not
          “at ease.” Mental force must reach organized matter to make it
          vibrate properly, that is, live. Matter may be vibrating, but if it is
          not vibrating adaptatively, it is not “living.” Mental forces kept from
          matter cause it to revert to its elemental state. There is something in
          a living man that a moment after death is not in the dead. The
          absence of mental force in the body is called death. The partial absence of mental force in the body is paralysis.
          My thinking is that OR meant, in other words, not two opposing choices.
          Stevenson does not differentiate between nerve and other tissues as being the recipient of this loss of MI or lack of ease. “Adapting things universal for use” and “coordinating the actions of the tissue cells” seems to include all forces and all matter.

          • David Suskin 07/25/2014, 5:47 pm:

            Briefly – (yes I know – David Suskin/Briefly >> an OXYMORON 🙂

            IMO >> Of course it means >> ” in other words!”
            and
            I’ve been studying for a while – Looking back Steve, at Stevenson ‘s Art 364. – How Defining and Well Put!! or (GETTING IT? (aka Got Milk?)) 🙂

            Need to reread RW – In new light!

          • Claude Lessard 07/25/2014, 6:54 pm:

            Steve,

            I understand what you posted. That’s RWS’ interpretation and I respect it.
            Go to the beginning of his textbook to page xxxii and xxxiii where the reader is exposed for the first time to the 33 principles and see what you read. This is where people go when they want to know the 33 principles… don’t they not? –

            – The law of ACTIVE organization continually ADAPTS universal forces and e/matter (pri.23) WITHOUT breaking a universal law (pri.24)> That means that innate intelligence is NEVER prevented from adapting things universal. How could 100% of innate intelligence (pri.21) be prevented from adapting things universal? Innate intelligence will ALWAYS be normal and its functions will ALWAYS be normal (pri.27) and will ALWAYS adapt things universal (pri.23) WITHIN the limits of adaptation. It will be a different adaptation of course… yet universal things will be adapted nevertheless.

          • Steve 07/25/2014, 10:02 pm:

            Ha, some one wrote OR under OF in my copy of vol 14 page xxxiii

          • Joe Strauss 07/26/2014, 11:15 am:

            Its good to know that someone beside me will be figuratively burned at the stake as a chiropractic heretic. Now if you can find out who it is while the BJ acolytes are gathering the wood we can get on with keeping the worship of Palmer in force.

          • Joe Strauss 07/26/2014, 11:07 am:

            Steve, my Stephenson says OF in the list of principles on Page xxxii and as you point out, OR on page 301 (art,364). So which is correct? Is the second reference a dittography error? If so Stephenson needs a new proofreader! Hermeneutical principles say that the first usage determines the meaning. That would give precedence to “OF” in the list of principles which apparently were a collaboration of RW and BJ, RW reducing BJ’s expanded list in Vol. V of the Green Books (I think) to 33. It’s amazing how many chiropractors (on their sites) cannot even copy the principles correctly let alone understand them!

        • Joe Strauss 07/26/2014, 10:20 am:

          Claude, I see no problem with making that change. As I said in my comment to Myron, never liked the term DIS-EASE to start with. My only issue with your post is whether this is part of an “evolutionary” or a refinement. We are not trying to evolve chiropractic. There are enough guys out there wanting to do that. We are just trying to refine it, to remove some of the impurities the intrinsically perfect philosophy has picked up over the years by being handled by us imperfect human beings. I like your suggestion. If no one has a major difficulty with it, I think it should go into the lexicon.

          • Claude Lessard 07/26/2014, 11:42 am:

            Joseph,

            I have no problem with refinement. Thank you.

          • David Suskin 07/26/2014, 12:22 pm:

            Interesting that p#30 page xxxii lists the causeS of dis-ease and Art 364 lists the causE of disease.
            It’s one cause – interference with the transmission of Innate forces..yes/no

  2. Steve Tullius 07/22/2014, 3:54 pm:

    Dr. Strauss, can you please explain something for me? It sounds to me from this post that you believe the ultimate value of the concept of DIS-EASE and perhaps the entire profession is that humanity can understand that a disconnect can occur between the ii and the matter which leads to a state of “less than perfect, absolute organization.”

    Is this the teaching point you believe that society could and should understand regarding chiropractic, their lives and where chiropractic fits in to it? If so, do you believe this is a concept that the public can grasp/will ever grasp?

    • Joe Strauss 07/23/2014, 9:10 pm:

      That’s a good and fair question, Steve:
      1. It makes sense to you and I. There’s a lot of people out there as smart as us. It will not make sense to all of them, in our lifetime, but so what. Besides, there were people in my class in chiropractic school, smarter than me who did not get it so perhaps how smart you are is not a factor.
      2. The present models; “chiropractic gets all, most, many, some, certain people well” is not exactly resonating with the world. Perhaps a new model would be more successful. It sure could not be any worse judging from the present state of the profession.
      3. Most important; if I know that,
      A. There is an inborn intelligence that runs the human body and is responsible for all its functions.
      B. It uses the nerve system to accomplish that .
      C. Vertebral subluxation interferes with that.
      D. Chiropractors correct vertebral subluxations.
      It would be cruel and inhumane of me to withhold that information from people. Whether they choose to accept the information or not is not my responsibility and is out of my control. Enough did for 45 years to make me a good living. If it had not I would have gotten a part-time job so I could afford to continue that work.

      • RichieBDC 07/24/2014, 3:35 pm:

        Thanks Joe, needed to hear that….still struggling but it is a mission because I got it….and continue by Gods grace (my spiritual place)

  3. Claude 07/25/2014, 7:38 pm:

    …… yet universal things will be adapted nevertheless. In other words e/matter will be adapted 100% by innate intelligence regardless of its degree of limitation due to the fact that there is 100% of innate iinnate intelligence in every “living thing,” the requisite amount, proportional to its organization (pri.22).

    • David Suskin 07/26/2014, 6:09 am:

      Claude,
      Does this logical path imply that universal forces at the site of subluxation are adapted to by ii proportional to the vertemeres degree of organization?

      That there is always adaption proportional to tissue organization. If Less organized(subluxation area), then ess adaptation, but STILL adaption, but not the full intent of the originating mental impulse after intellectual adaptation? Please qualify this statement!!

      • Claude Lessard 07/26/2014, 7:36 pm:

        David,

        Down the logical path, WHAT is the CAUSE of VS?

        • David Suskin 07/26/2014, 8:32 pm:

          Claude
          Of course LOM is the only cause y/n?
          Adjustment is educated universal force that innate force uses to adjust itself so a universal law is not being broken allowing mental impulses to be transmitted.

          • David Suskin 07/26/2014, 10:37 pm:

            Claude
            Rethought that:
            Answer: failure to adapt

          • Joe Strauss 07/26/2014, 11:49 pm:

            Dave, how about the failure to adapt EIF due to Lof M in expressing IRF?

          • David Suskin 07/27/2014, 12:39 am:

            Joe,
            Yes. And I find that Claude does that a lot. Combining principles and definitions into other logical statements (amalgamations), that sometimes brings out a slightly different view or underestanding, like you just did. Something I never knew to do but have started. Again.
            Since all deductions come from the major premise, and all are therefore deducted as true in themselves, they can be mixed and substituted, revealing slightly different slants or angles. Interesting! And effective.

            On the issue of p30. Xxxii versus article 364, was the fact that ’causes of dis-ease’ versus ’cause of dis-ease previously discussed?

    • David Suskin 07/27/2014, 4:01 pm:

      Claude,
      Maybe I took what you stated out of context, therefore misinterpreted your logic. To me, your comment: ‘In other words e/matter will be adapted 100% by innate intelligence regardless of its degree of limitation’
      Implied adaptation by ii proportional to its organization of matter, thus LOM was relative to the amount of interference. You understand that?
      That’s why I made my comment.

      YOU used the word LIMITATION. (degree of limitation). I did not or still not know what you were implying.

      Maybe a moot point. You rested in your comment to me ’07/27/2014 12:47am’ which basically restates a line of reason I agree with. If that is a restatement of your main point, then again, perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant by using the word LIMITATION. yes/no

      Question: would you say that the nervous system, perhaps every LIVING system and the matter it contains, has 2 realms of existence and function.
      1. Is physical (lends itself to universal forces, chemical reactions, physics-elements), triune as existence, and
      2. Is metaphysical (lends itself to innate forces, signs of life, active organization, metaphysics-code,message) triune as LIFE

      Have I eg brasses the retelling of story over and over in as many different ways as possible, basically aspects of the authority of the 33 principles.

      Do I ask to many questions?

      When you WOC (whip out card) to someone, a potential pm, what’s the 1st thing you say to them to engage them into the realm of NTOSC?
      🙂 🙂 🙂

  4. Claude Lessard 07/26/2014, 12:30 am:

    Steve,

    You posted: “Ha< some one wrote OR under OF in my copy of vol 14 page xxxiii"… Now… WHO do you choose to BE with this NEW insight?

  5. Claude Lessard 07/27/2014, 12:47 am:

    David,

    Joseph is correct. The cause of vertebral subluxation is a concussion of forces, whereas an external invasive force overcomes an internal resistive force due to limitation of e/matter. –

    – Therefore, since a vertebral subluxation is a vertebra that has lost its juxtaposition with the vertebra above, the one below or both, to an extent less than a lunation, occluding an opening, impinging upon a nerve and interfering with the flow (transmission) of mental impulse from brain cell to tissue cell and vice versa, we see that it is from the impingement upon the transmitting matter that EASE is lost, de-coding the mental impulse with intelligent direction, which is constructive toward structural e/matter (IF) into a nerve impulse without intelligent direction, which is deconstructive toward structural e/matter (UF). The result of the DIS-EASED transmitting matter reverts the mental impulse into a nerve impulse and causes INCOORDINATION OF ACTION of the parts of the body violating principle #32. –

    – Thus, “interference with the transmission of innate forces causes incoordination OF dis-ease.” (pri.30) page xxxiii of RWS’ chiropractic textbook.-

    – The objective chiropractor is one WHO chooses to LACVS for a full expression of the innate forces of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD.

    • Claude Lessard 07/27/2014, 2:16 am:

      correction: to an extent less than a luxation (spell write is wrong). 😉

  6. Claude Lessard 07/28/2014, 1:15 am:

    David,

    You posted: “YOU used the word LIMITATION. (degree of limitation). I did not or still not know what you were implying.” —

    – If you were to read the posts of COTB of the past two years, you would perhaps understand. Now, as you know, it is me WHO chooses to promote telling the story over and over and over and over again in as many creative ways as doable. Therefore, it is me WHO now chooses to lead by example and restate in a different way what I stated before.;) –

    – You inherited your ancestral pool gene from your great grand parents of long ago, with limitation of your e/matter. Even under “perfect” circumstances the law of ACTIVE organization will not break a universal law (pri.24). When a concussion of forces occurs within your body and if an external invasive force overcomes an internal resistive force due to the limits of adaptation of your e/matter, it will cause a vertebral subluxation which will impinge upon the TRANSMiTTING matter causing it to lack EASE. The TRANSMITTING matter is now in a state of DIS-EASE and will interfere with the FLOW of mental impulse with intelligent direction (IF) which is constructive towards structural matter (pri.26) by de-coding it into a nerve impulse without intelligent direction (UF) which is deconstructive towards structural matter (pri.26). This ACTION will further limit your e/matter’s ability to be adapted by the law of ACTIVE organization for coordination of action of all the parts of your body which violates principle #32 and creates INCOORDINATION OF ACTION of DIS-EASE (pri.30). –

    – Therefore, together without condemnation, we conclude that there is a “degree” of limitation of e/matter that is directly proportional to the interference with the TRANSMISSION of innate forces (pri.29). –

    – In other words, it is at the start point of VS that the lack of EASE of the TRANSMITTING matter takes place (DIS-EASE) which further limits the adaptation of e/matter… which in turn violates the principle of coordination (pri.32). That’s what we call: INCOORDINATION OF ACTION of all the parts of the body. There is really no need any longer to use the term DIS-EASE… unless you want to discuss what happens to the TRANSMITTING matter. 🙂 –

    – You ask question: “1. Is physical (lends itself to universal forces,…” >>> Universal forces are METAPHYSICAL instructive information giving to PHYSICAL e/matter ALL of its properties (configuring its electrons, protons and neutrons) and actions (determining the velocities of those electrons, protons and neutrons) thus maintaining it in existence. Therefore any system of the body that is dead is simply physical and has NO coordination of action and demonstrates no signs of life as per principle #18. Yes, at the cellular level there is still coordination of action to a certain degree as the e/matter undergoes decomposition under the control of the innate intelligence of the cell… until e/matter is unadaptable at the cellular level. Eventually there will be only its elemental state of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. It is WHEN the body evidences the signs of life that PHYSICAL e/matter is united to METAPHYSICAL intelligence. E/matter will ALWAYS remain PHYSICAL. Intelligence will ALWAYS remain METAPHYSICAL. It is the uniting of METAPHYSICAL intelligence and PHYSICAL intelligence that maintains active organization. It is this ACTIVE organization that we call “living things” which are BOTH physical and metaphysical (pri.21). That is at this level that the evidence of the signs of life are the evidence of the METAPHYSICAL intelligence of life. This is the great paradox. 😉 –

    – The first thing I say WHEN it is me WHO chooses to WOC, is: “WHAT controls your heart beat WHEN you sleep?” Most people eventually get to say: “The brain”… Then I ask: “WHAT controls your brain WHEN you sleep?” Then they say: “I don’t know” which is the answer YOU are looking for. WHEN a person accepts that she does not know, then… she MIGTH be open to hear the story over and over and over and over again in as many creative ways as doable. 😉

    • David Suskin 07/28/2014, 2:19 am:

      Claude
      Thank you for clarifying the paradox,
      I continue to study and grow.
      As far as your WOC example
      Nice 🙂

      Adio

  7. David Suskin 08/03/2014, 8:47 pm:

    Is dis-ease physical or metaphysical

    • Claude Lessard 08/03/2014, 9:08 pm:

      Dave,

      What do you think it is? 😉

  8. David Suskin 08/03/2014, 10:30 pm:

    No no Claude. I’m asking you. I suggest that dis-ease is metaphysical.
    And when you agree I have a whole lot to say with regards to Matter,
    Ok I’ll satisfy you socratics. May I suggest that
    Joes previous statement
    ‘(A). There is an inborn intelligence that runs the human body and is responsible for all its functions.’
    That the running of the body and responsibility for all body functions as a process performed by ii I’m suggesting without condemnation is INACCURATE. That is a statement of physical manifestation constituting chemical, biological, physical, mechanistic operations of the body and it’s metabolisms, and all the 1000s of processes constituting the signs of life.

    Innate Intelligence coordinates and maintains matter in active organization. Period.

    That is NOT running the human body and being responsible for all its functions.
    Function and body running is the terrain of THE PHYSICAL which manifests in the realm of MATTER. Disease exists within matter, the physical, which can effect LIFE, the metaphysical. Subluxation is caused by invasive exceeding resistive forces, by LOM and always effects the metaphysical-LIFE, which CAN effect the physical, matter, or create MORE LOM thus disease, organ and cell malfunction. It is an indirect relationship but not a necessary relationship

    Physically, disease, the absence of health, can be created thru insult to the 1000s of physical processes (oxidation, ph-acidosis, etc., pathophysiology). What results from subluxation is a pathometaphysiology. Not the same. One could argue that inevitably the departure from health, is a LIFE altering process which always inevitably is a metaphysical manifestation. Dis-ease is that manifestation.

    • Claude Lessard 08/04/2014, 12:03 am:

      Dave,

      For DIS-EASE to be METAphysical, the interference would have to occur between intelligence and force. That is NOT the case. –

      – DIS-EASE is cause by VS (pri.30) and is the result of the impingement of the TRANSMITTING matter. When VS occurs, the loss of juxtaposition of the vertebra which occludes an opening will impinge upon the nerve and thus will CAUSE a lack of EASE which, in turn, will interfere with the FLOW of mental impulse from brain to tissue cell and vice versa. This lack of EASE of the TRANSMITTING matter will further increase the limitation of e/matter, thus violating principle #32. –

      – Therefore, together without condemnation, we conclude that DIS-EASE is physical. It is the result of an interference between brain cell (physical) and tissue cell (physical). –

      • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 1:09 am:

        The mental impulse IS metaphysical. Since there is an interference to that manifestation, the Dis-ease is an absence of the metaphysical component in the Matter. Dis-ease like darkness is a non entity of ease (light) (active organization or coordination). Dis-ease is a state of the triune NOT the MATTER.

        Can you see active organization, the process, or coordination, the process under a microscope? No. You only see the signs of life and the matter, which contains 1000s of physical functioning controls, processes and runnings of the body. Active organization and coordination are not functions. They are states of matter that indicate LIFE. Can you see LIFE. No. You can see the signs of life. Is a thought physical or metaphysical? It exists in matter like life, but has never been seen, like DIS-ease. I without condemnation disagree.

        Also you did not address my comments on Joes comment that
        ‘(A). There is an inborn intelligence that runs the human body and is responsible for all its functions.’
        That the running of the body and responsibility for all body functions as a process performed by ii I’m suggesting without condemnation is INACCURATE. That is a statement of physical manifestation constituting chemical, biological, physical, mechanistic operations of the body and it’s metabolisms, and all the 1000s of processes constituting the signs of life.

        Innate Intelligence coordinates and maintains matter in active organization. Period. I’ve heard of no other definition of innate intelligence

      • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 1:34 am:

        I’m going to agree with your MATTER logic, but here’s the thing, we seem to be have 2 parallel paradigms operating in innate matter. There’s the physical, chemical matter that has 1000s of operational mechanisms that do things, move things, etc. AND there is the triune paradigm with its mental impulse or no mental impulse surrounding the PHYSICAL operational part I just spoke of earlier.

        Yet the concept that EASE or DIS-EASE is a state of the Triune not the Matter? Is that not a possibility? The matter may be NOT actively organized and NOT coordinated,but isn’t ease or dis-ease a state of LIFE, not JUST the matter alone

        I think I have a point here. Still disagreeing without condemnation and open to how you reconcile
        Death report
        Person died because of kidney failure or liver failure or
        Stroke or acidosis or some physiological function failing
        VERSUS
        Died of inactive organization or died of incoordination

        I’m struggling to bring together 2 universes

        • Steve 08/04/2014, 3:07 pm:

          David,
          Could it be that dis-ease is neither metaphysical nor physical, but a separation of the two? IOW a violation of the triad. When intelligence is not delivered by force to matter, the matter then behaves in a less than optimal way. Obviously the manifestations of discoordination/dis-ease would be physical as the intelligence is unaffected, only it’s expression (ease) is compromised.

          • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 3:39 pm:

            So Steve, are you getting what I’m getting at, and that Claude is in disagreement of?

          • Steve 08/04/2014, 5:09 pm:

            Not sure David,
            Seems you are saying dis-ease is a lack of intelligence therefore a metaphysical problem and is not related to disease. Claude says dis-ease is a physical transmission problem, therefore physical. I think Sir Claude and I have discussed this before and my take away was, subluxation is a physical bone misalignment, causing a physical impingement to a physical nerve, thereby physically reducing it’s carrying capacity.
            That the loss of MI producing dis-ease and consequently a lack of coordination, is a logical conclusion from the principles. To associate dis-ease with disease goes beyond, not beyond logic, just beyond the principles.

          • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 5:47 pm:

            I’m saying that Dis-ease, which is a physical transmission problem of a metaphysical necessity, intelligence, for LIFE. It’s really a break down of the Triune. Universal matter doesn’t exist without intelligence. Innate Matter becomes universal matter with the removal of ii, therefore
            Ease versus Dis-ease is a Triune disturbance event, not just a Matter Event. Matter CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. Any matter cannot exist. But I”m really postulating this, perhaps in error, perhaps not. I’m a novice compared to you and Claude, with regards to the 33 principles, so I can listen to your Authority and say yes. But I do want to understand. Maybe there are semantic or gray areas that are not as important as the Chiropractic Objective LACVS, but for me to live an ADIO life, I need congruency. I give myself a hard time. That may be more of my own Slipping Shtick! or Insecurity or Something. Can’t really put my finger on what it is. Haven’t been able to, for a long, long time. BUT I KNOW I’M NOT ALONE. That’s why all the mixing, and the rest.

            My main thrust of this Dis-ease / Disease interest seems to be constantly avoided in my requests.

            If you Steve, or Claude or Joe where explaining the 33 principles (chiro philosophy), to phd biochemists, phd cell physiologists, phd physiologists, MECHANISTIC SCIENTISTS and you wanted to place the Task of the Metaphysical II accomplishing it’s role in LIFE processes, that being active organization and coordination, where would you place it? Parallel or Before. Is the Triune a parallel occurring paradigm. or sequential where the subject of Mechanism resides within the MATTER only and Innate Intelligence >> Innate Force comes Before with regards to the fulfillment of the Triune of Life

            metaphysical metaphysical physical
            intelligence force matter
            organization and coordination

          • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 5:51 pm:

            I’m saying that Dis-ease, which is a physical transmission problem of a metaphysical necessity, intelligence, for LIFE. It’s really a break down of the Triune. Universal matter doesn’t exist without intelligence. Innate Matter becomes universal matter with the removal of ii, therefore
            Ease versus Dis-ease is a Triune disturbance event, not just a Matter Event. Matter CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. Any matter cannot exist. But I”m really postulating this, perhaps in error, perhaps not. I’m a novice compared to you and Claude, with regards to the 33 principles, so I can listen to your Authority and say yes. But I do want to understand. Maybe there are semantic or gray areas that are not as important as the Chiropractic Objective LACVS, but for me to live an ADIO life, I need congruency. I give myself a hard time. That may be more of my own Slipping Shtick! or Insecurity or Something. Can’t really put my finger on what it is. Haven’t been able to, for a long, long time. BUT I KNOW I’M NOT ALONE. That’s why all the mixing, and the rest.

            My main thrust of this Dis-ease / Disease interest seems to be constantly avoided in my requests.

            If you Steve, or Claude or Joe where explaining the 33 principles (chiro philosophy), to phd biochemists, phd cell physiologists, phd physiologists, MECHANISTIC SCIENTISTS and you wanted to place the Task of the Metaphysical II accomplishing it’s role in LIFE processes, that being active organization and coordination, where would you place it? Parallel or Before. Is the Triune a parallel occurring paradigm. or sequential where the subject of Mechanism resides within the MATTER only and Innate Intelligence >> Innate Force comes Before with regards to the fulfillment of the Triune of Life

            metaphysical metaphysical physical
            intelligence force matter
            organization and coordination
            physiology, structure, biochemistry,
            cell biology and pathways, etc.

            or

            paradigm 1
            metaphysical metaphysical physical
            intelligence force matter
            organization and coordination

            paradigm 2
            brain impulse matter
            physiology, structure, biochemistry, cell biology and pathways, etc.

            Anyway I’m giving myself and perhaps you food for thought, or maybe garbage for a trash bag

      • Joe Strauss 08/04/2014, 10:03 pm:

        Claude, Dave, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound? I think we have a similar issue here. We know, by our definition, that there is a metaphysical component to the vs as well as 3 physical components. The Vs is in the physical matter so it is physical. BUT it is interfering with a metaphysical mental impulse so technically, it is also metaphysical. Without the metaphysical aspect of it , it is not a vs. DIS-EASE is a physical interference that has metaphysical results/effects. If we are not addressing the metaphysical component, we are nothing more than physical therapists or osteopaths. So both of you, IMO, are partially correct. If you could get 3 more chiropractors and an elephant to join this discussion, it would really be interesting.

        • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 11:49 pm:

          Joe,
          And are the effects/results which are metaphysical, are they deconstructive, passive fragmentations and incoordinations of innate matter constructs? Where innate matter becomes universal matter?
          The elephant is what is confusing the public and I have a monkey on my back that I’m trying to get off of me. 😉 oh we’ll. at least I have friends, family, my guitar and chiropractic philosophy. Oh, and my iPad. And netflix!
          I will carry on. Adio. 😉

          • Claude Lessard 08/05/2014, 12:58 pm:

            Dave,

            When innate e/matter becomes universal e/matter it will no longer evidence any signs of life. It is the mental impulse (IF) that is de-coded to a nerve impulse (UF). WHEN this occurs, we are dealing with deconstruction (pri.26) and the tissue cells become “cellfish”, as it remains “living e/matter” and will continue to be adapted by the innate intelligence of the cell.

          • David Suskin 08/05/2014, 1:33 pm:

            Claude,
            If there is organ intelligence, tissue intelligence, cell intelligence (cellfish). With Subluxation, I can surmise that as you say:
            ” It is the mental impulse (IF) that is de-coded to a nerve impulse (UF). WHEN this occurs, we are dealing with deconstruction (pri.26) and the tissue cells become “cellfish”, as it remains “living e/matter” and will continue to be adapted by the innate intelligence of the cell.”

            Does that mean that depending on where the nerve goes to (organ, tissue, cell(direct)), that that level is decontructed (eg. organ) which can volley down to it’s cellular level that deconstructive force (eg. subluxation to nerve to liver >> volleys to decontructive force to tissues of liver >> volleys to cells of tissues >> ‘cellfish’ intelligence >> remains “living e/matter” and will continue to be adapted by the innate intelligence of the cell.

            once a cell is “cellfish” could I assume that THE BODY still, with p23 and p25, Makes it’s attempt to adapt to or apply those principles INDIRECTLY, within LOM, to that “cellfish” cell.

            AND

            am I making all of this more difficult than it needs to be, without condemnation of my DebbieDowner Mentality, please excuse my hyper vigilant nature.
            I carry on ADIO 😉

        • Claude Lessard 08/05/2014, 1:21 pm:

          Joseph,

          The chiropractic objective does Include the METAphysical aspect of VS. The question is: Does the chitopractic objective address the CAUSE which is VS, with a METAphysical component, or DIS-EASE which is the result of the impingement in the physical TRANSMITTING matter that will de-code the mental impulse to a nerve impulse causing INCOORDINATION OF ACTION of the parts of the body?

  9. Claude 08/04/2014, 3:04 pm:

    Dave,

    The interference is in e/matter, caused by VS as it impinges the TRANSMITTING matter and further increases the limits of ADAPTATION of e/matter. Look up the definition of vertebral subluxation within the lexicon. It is the TRANSMITTING matter that lacks EASE. It is this lack of EASE (DIS-ESASE) of the TRANSMITTING matter that causes INCOORDINATION OF ACTIONS of the (receiving) parts of the living body. EASE and DIS-EASE are states of e/matter. Philosophically, we use rational logic to explain the META[physical component of the vertebral subluxation (the interference with the mental impulse) with the concept of the triune, demonstrating that the instructive information is NO longer present which further increases the limitation of e/matter. –

    – Death is e/matter having reached its utmost limit of adaptation. In other words it is WHEN e/matter ceases to adapt completely that it is no longer a “living body”.

    • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 3:38 pm:

      You’re saying that
      p5. The Perfection of the Triune – In order to have 100% Life, there must be 100% Intelligence, 100% Force, 100% Matter(EASE in e/matter)?

      AND that
      lack of EASE (DIS-ESASE) of the TRANSMITTING matter that causes INCOORDINATION OF ACTIONS of the (receiving) parts of the living body, >> those receiving parts THEN being all of the cell physiology, biochemistry, body physiology >> which renders it in a state of DIS-EASE?

      please excuse my persistence and perhaps thick skull 😉
      but truth is truth, I’m trying to grasp it and DEFINITIONS sometimes change depending on what might be discovered AS the truth.

      • Claude Lessard 08/04/2014, 5:31 pm:

        Dave,

        The perfection of the triune (pri.5) is universal and ABSOLUTE. Remember there is ALWAYS 100% of intelligence, 100% of force and 100% of e/matter in the universe. This is corroborated by Newton’s second law and that WHY this principle is labelled: The Perfection of the Triune. –

        – EASE concerns ONLY e/matter as regards to active organization within structural e/matter (pri.26) of “living things” (pri. 20, 21and 22) that has the ability to be adapted by innate intelligence(pri. 23 and 24)). It is principle #32 that is violated due to VS… NEVER principle #5. Do you “see” that?

        • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 6:10 pm:

          OK, so you’re saying that the Triune p5 does not apply to
          ii >> iforce >> imatter. I can accept that, as the meaning of principle 5, as you explained and I understand VS, active organization, e/matter, which I presume IS ALL THIS CHEMISTRY, CELL PHYSIOLOGY, BIOCHEMISTRY, ETC. BRU HA HA that I’m talking about.

          I see that, so Is LIFE metaphysical?

          Also Matter doesn’t exist without intelligence, whether it’s ii or ui
          or both. One or both exist in matter. Our conversation here about Matter and Matter only is a theoretical construct. It doesn’t exist ALONE in reality (separated from intelligence). So I would think that DIS-EASE as an entity doesn’t exist ALONE either (eg. The statement this matter is in a state of Dis-ease, meaning that it’s living matter that has universal intelligence only instructions, when it requires innate intelligence, because it is alive, therefore it is in a state of Dis-Ease.
          You can have Dis-Ease without reference to Innate Intelligence? It implies it’s absence. Therefore it has METAPHYSICAL overtones to it. Ya know, principles are black and white, but their are shades of gray that exist IN REALITY, not just logic, so IN REALITY, metaphysical might be an implication, where as for pure logic sake, in a purely logic, deductive framework like the 33 principles, perhaps we can talk about Matter as alone, and Dis-ease as being only of the Matter, but in Reality – Does it ever exist?

          Sorry Claude for being so thick headed, stubborn, stupid, annoying. I get it, but I want to own it, and perhaps it’s just gonna take time, TOO MUCH TIME!!!!! 😉

          • Claude Lessard 08/04/2014, 6:37 pm:

            Dave,

            Carry on. ADIO. 😉

        • David Suskin 08/04/2014, 10:19 pm:

          EASE is innate matter in its constructive state, which is a reflection of p32. Harmonious and coordinated action. Life, perhaps more accurately, Health.

          DIS-EASE is a deconstructive state where matter reverts to its universal form, p26, where it’s intelligent design and all it’s chemistries and structures and functions, begin to crumble, unadapted, without coordination or active organization, and even if it’s just ‘a brick in the ocean’, the level rises and innate matter, however slight, proportionate to its interference, in time, within the degree of LOM, is released of it’s stable, functional, purposeful complexity, Towards the stabile physical, entropic universal elemental deconstructed ground state. At some point, the soul departs.

  10. David Suskin 08/04/2014, 6:51 pm:

    Oui Oui Monsieur 🙂

    • Claude 08/05/2014, 3:33 pm:

      Dave,

      “THE BODY”, as you posted, if it is living, is ALWAYS on the RECEIVING end of the being ADAPTED by instructive information from the law of ACTIVE organization. Please, remember that the function of e/matter is to EXPRESS force (pri.13)… nothing else. E/matter in and of itself, without instructive information from intelligence is NOTHING (pri.1 and 20). Carry on. ADIO. 😉

      • David Suskin 08/05/2014, 4:49 pm:

        Claude,
        Let’s say I have pain in my knee (anywhere). I sense that. I am alive and I feel pain. It’s experiential. It’s conscious. I take NSAID, or Aspirin, etc.) – NO PAIN! Or I drink wine (beer, etc.) or I get drunk and all of the good, bad and the ugly manifestations. or I drink Coffee and get all hopped up, thinking fast, jittery, moving fast, etc. etc. etc. In other words. DRUGS and their physiological effects and manifestations on ME, this LIVING ORGANISM. Or You, if you want to join me 😉
        WHAT IS THIS! EXPERIENTIALLY, ORGANISTICALLY?
        I’ve got Innate Intelligence, generating EASE, communicating Mental Impulses, with instructive information to my Physical Innate e/Matter, and I’m experiencing all of these effects.
        I know, I know. It’s II >> Force >> and MATTER ALTERATIONS!!! or maybe NOT ONLY… Is there interference to Innate Intelligence communication, information? Is there interference to Innate Forces and their ability to adapt or alteration of their messages where MY EXPERIENCE AND PERCEPTIONS CHANGE????

        IS The INNATE INTELLIGENCE AND INNATE FORCE THE UNDERPINNING, GROUND WORK, ROOT OF LIFE???? But all the rest is MATTER. The experience is how ii and innate force interacts with all the variations of e/matter >> manifesting a Living, Breathing, Experience, feeling one way or another, physiologically something happening or something else, BUT SO MUCH OF IT IS THE CHEMISTRY OF MATTER THAT VARIES THE EXPERIENCE AND OUTCOME. Yes, the underpinning of Innate Intelligence’s influence determines my adaptations, my signs of life >>> but the REST??
        I guess I keep alluding to the interaction between THE PHYSICAL AND THE METAPHYSICAL, from a 33 principle point of view, and I guess from other angles (eg. what is love, what is consciousness, etc. but we don’t have to go THERE), JUST CHIROPRACTIC!

  11. David Suskin 08/05/2014, 5:27 pm:

    I’d think, logically, that with the LIFE underpinnings of the actualizing of the TRIUNE, that ADJUSTMENTS would have greater experiential effects on people, in MASS. Yes, people say all kinds of things. They feel more relaxed, or they have less pain, or this or that, and yes, in time MAJOR THINGS DO HAPPEN (Health, Potential, Mind, Body, etc.), with regards to PM’s and their physiology, but it’s all anecdotal, etc. WHEREAS Pharmaceuticals!!!! Big effects!!!!! So MATTER variations has a BIG effect on function within LIVING TISSUE.

    That to me is Interesting. Disturbing, philosophically, but interesting, and I’d think requires explanation. Not only for me and my curious, QUESTIONING nature, but for PM’S AND FOR PRACTICE BUILDING. Because OI Causes or Effects on Living Beings are so EXPERIENCIALLY Impactful, that it creates a major dichotomy between ADIO and OIBU living and perspective.
    There needs to be a PERCEPTUAL or Explanatory Window, that’s easy to grasp, and allows EVERYONE some Means to GET The Chiropractic Experience. I mean, Even I, have trouble, GETTING IT! THE BIG IDEA. It’s a problem. and it needs rectification!

    • Claude Lessard 08/05/2014, 9:28 pm:

      David,

      WHO do you choose to play for… WHEN you play YOUR music?

      • David Suskin 08/05/2014, 9:31 pm:

        I Choose to play FOR MySELF most of the time. Or with a friend for ourselves.

        • Claude Lessard 08/05/2014, 10:15 pm:

          David,

          That’s great! I heard that a “true” artist ALWAYS does her art for her self regardless of WHO is present. Is that your experience?

          • David Suskin 08/05/2014, 11:37 pm:

            Is that my NTOSC experience?
            It’s beginning to be that. I tell my PMs my objective after I acknowledge their initial objective.

            The art is for yourself.
            The presentation (performance) is for others

            You said:. E/matter in and of itself, without instructive information from intelligence is NOTHING (pri.1 and 20). So what becomes of a kidney transplant where there are no nerves hooked up to the kidney proper.

            Like I said before, the matter, chemical altering body functions thru pharmaceuticals versus the innate force communicating with matter it’s coordinating and active organizing functions challenges my understanding of LIFE – Matter Realities.

            I do keep asking for guidance. And I thank you Claude for your continued input to me without condemnation 😉

  12. Claude 08/06/2014, 10:00 pm:

    David,

    You asked: “So what becomes of a kidney transplant where there are no nerves hooked up to the kidney proper.”? That kidney will NOT be in harmonious action with the other parts of the body and will permanently NOT fulfill its office and purpose. Which means that the principle of coordination, #32, is permanently violated. The body is still alive and is in a permanent state of INCOORDINATION OF ACTION.

    • David Suskin 08/06/2014, 11:07 pm:

      Claude,
      Don’t I ask questions sometimes with obvious answers?
      How do you mix the authority of the authority of the 33 principles with the science of medicine as it stands in the year 2014?
      What do YOU surmise some of the PhDs and MDs questions would be?
      I NEED INNATE THOTS!
      And what were you driving at, asking me questions about being an artist, playing music, who do I play my art for? What’s goin on in that frontal lobe of yours?

      • Claude Lessard 08/07/2014, 11:23 am:

        David,

        Together without condemnation, it is me WHO choose NOT to MIX! 😉 –

        – it is also me WHO choose to reveal to you that it is me WHO choose to accept the AUTHORITY of the 33 principles and that it is also me WHO choose to HOLD the seeming opposites of ADIO and OIBU within the STRUCTURE of my understanding of chiropractic philosophy. It is ALL about the WHO is it not? 🙂 –

        – Carry on. ADIO.

  13. David Suskin 08/07/2014, 1:25 pm:

    It is about WHO, after all, it is the WHO that determines the directions and choices that the BE takes and makes.
    Chiropractic is a Philosophy, Art and Science. Science is an inductive, empirical process, an Educated process. Essentially it is an OI investigation yes/no.
    How does one temper that direction, understanding that facts, inevitably discovered, within what can potentially be seen, might leave gaps or conflicts between what philosophical definitions and premises discuss (eg. coordination and active organization) and facts that inevitably in time will have more and more detailed information regarding the mechanistic operations of matter, specifically matter within LIfe forms?

    How about this Claude and Joe, to explain Chiropractic Effectively to the wants and needs of PM’s

    Chiropractic Adjustments (you can explain innate intelligence, or nerve interference, whatever) will result in healing of your disease, maximize your potential, etc. in time, to the degree that LOM impedes that process. To the extent that the PM understands LOM, is the degree that you are telling them TRUTH vs COVERT LIES.

    Any thoughts not so much on the OSC objective as defined, but whether my statement is True or False? 😉

    Is that an INACCURATE statement?

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