Chiropractic Philosophy and Creation

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Chiropractic philosophy does not try to explain the creation or origin of life , just the sustaining of it “…..maintaining it in existence” (Prin. #1.)

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This article has 58 comments

  1. Steve 11/28/2014, 4:17 pm:

    “The sustaining of it”, and our relationship as chiropractors with it (life).

    • David Suskin 11/28/2014, 5:53 pm:

      And the objective standard as it applies to living according to an ADIO world and life viewpoint

    • Joe Strauss 11/29/2014, 1:35 pm:

      That’s what the next 32 principles are all about, Steve

      • David Suskin 11/29/2014, 2:07 pm:

        Why and where did the concept that universal intelligence being a part of the immaterial universe, in the beginning, created matter, and that this vision, being held, then maintained it in existence?
        YET
        Being that we inductively observe intelligence thru the organization we see in the universe, isn’t the leap of faith applicable to both maintaining matter in existence AND establishing (creation) matter in existence?
        I do understand that MATTER IS physical, and that maintaining something is different than creating, but actions and properties? Are actions and properties material or immaterial abstractions?
        Seems to be a great divide in the interpretation of P1!?

        • Joe Strauss 11/29/2014, 7:08 pm:

          David, Stephenson (and I assume B.J.) are responsible for giving ui a creative quality (God). The major premise does not. That is why Reggie taught me that ui was inductively determined to keep it out of the theological/religious realm. Some chiropractors want to make it more than just an inductive conclusion and so they add faith (in a theological Being) making it deductive. That is fine but it is theological not chiropractic philosophy. Others want to call ui, God making the terms synonymous. Actions are usually associated with physical/material. Essence is usually associated with the immaterial.

          • David Suskin 11/29/2014, 7:51 pm:

            Joe,
            After all, I’ve gotten most of my facts from your books and what I’ve read from Stephenson. You have indicated a communication need by BJ, to theologize p1 to perhaps popularize, etc chiropractic.
            Within the observation of an organized universe, and the deduction that intelligence is implicit in that organization, with the removal of that intelligence and thus the removal of those actions and properties that maintain matter in existence, can we deduce that matter would become non existent and thus matter really is an action and a property given to a immaterial metaphysical entity, thus establishing matter as a literal creation by the intelligence giving it’s created force to an immaterial non existent metaphysical entity, properties and actions, thus establishing its existence.
            In other words, the consequence of rendering a physical entity, matter, detached from its intelligence, which is a theoretical supposition, rendering it non existent, implies existence as a creation AND a maintained existence ???
            I don’t know. Why am I groping at this. I guess because I too am looking for A POWERFUL omnipotent experience as an implication for chiropractic to suggest.
            I do understand the nature of Life with regards to ii, and that with the removal of ii from living matter, you get death. Now it is true that it is impossible to reintroduce ii to the same matter, for it is immaterial and we have know holding on it. But if it was possible, theoretically I suppose the dead matter would come back to some kind of active reorganization.
            It’s all getting very theoretical and perhaps silly.
            Maybe we can only know what the truth is not. Not what the truth is.
            Do you Joe, embrace a paradox(s) within your chiropractic 33 principles understandings, or is it all very clear to you?

  2. David Suskin 11/29/2014, 12:52 am:

    Yet RWS suggests other relationships within the major premise (see below). What part(s) of the inductive and faith arrival at the veracity of P1 is in error as described by RWS (see below) and why if at all.
    Art. 49. THE FIRST STEP OF THE NORMAL COMPLETE CYCLE. (119, V.) UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE. The Infinite Intelligence that is the Source of everything in the Universe. The Infinite Intelligence pervading all space and matter, which creates and governs all things, both material and im- material. It occupies all space and distance. It has existed always. It is older, wiser, greater, stronger and better than anything in the Universe. It created everything and must have been first and indefinitely superior in order to do it. It must have been and is VERY intelligent. Having these virtues it must have never made a mistake and therefore is always right. Being always right is always good. Being infinitely good is God. (See Webster for definition of God.) Being infinite, no one can define it, actually; one can get only a finite idea of it from the finite amount of manifestations we are able to perceive. This intelligence is not limited, it is we who are limited in perception. (Prin. 5, 18, and 24.) It endows “living things” with localized Power (Innate Intelligence) as a higher manifestation of its forces.
    Art. 50. THE SECOND STEP OF THE NORMAL COMPLETE CYCLE. (121, V.) INNATE INTELLIGENCE. The localized or inborn intelligence of a “living thing.” A finite portion of Universal Intelligence in a finite portion of matter, whose mission it is to keep the matter in active organization. (Prin. 21.) Individualized Universal Intelligence. A segment of Universal Intelligence which, though a part of it, is distinct from it. (Prin. 20.) (Fig. 6.) While Innate Intelligence is a finite portion of Universal Intelligence, it represents the amount of attention that Universal Intelligence is giving to that amount of matter. All matter is blessed with the caretaking of the Supreme Intelligence, and if this ceases for one moment, matter would cease to exist. We do not know, of course, but it seems reasonable to believe, that the Creator’s solicitude did not end when things were created; that Universal Intelligence is continuously unfolding thoughts of which everything in the universe gets its share—that amount intended for it, no more, no less. Organic things seem to be blessed with a greater amount of attention than inorganic things. So much so that Universal Intelligence has endowed the living organisms with localized or a specialized branch of itself to attend to things that must have immediate and localized decisions, in order to keep the matter organized.

    • Joe Strauss 11/29/2014, 1:57 pm:

      David, Stephenson in art. 49 contradicts P. #17. He writes” …It has existed always…” In art. 50 he contradicts his own explanation of P. #11, by asserting “…it seems reasonable to believe, that the Creator’s (sic) solicitude did not end…”

      • David Suskin 11/29/2014, 2:20 pm:

        Joe,
        Hmmmmmmmmmm
        (Read my previous post)
        And
        Hmmmmmmmmmm
        It’s funny joe. Well not really funny, maybe more interesting or critical.
        Writing. The written word. Having that get into the heart and soul of the reader. It’s certainly individual and a bit of a trick.
        You do approach it with logic and analogies, which is I guess what BJ and RWS did. And you’ve mentioned in your writings about the times and backgrounds of people, culturally. Communicating with the word, sometimes perhaps breaking logic or exact meanings to Communicate IDEAS.
        Not an easy thing to do.
        And that today, we are looking to continue the refinement of the 33, and their most logical and truthful interpretation.
        The writing, the prose, the style and the words and analogies used. So critical to convey a living breathing concept from a bunch of lettered symbols on a page.
        I guess that’s why it’s important to read everything, filter it, discuss it, analyze it and in the end make some ongoing choices as to what something means to oneself and perhaps the best way to accurately express it and convey meaning to others.

  3. David Suskin 11/29/2014, 7:15 am:

    Creation of matter….RWS… Continued…
    Oh, I understand your statement Joe, and the past blogs on this subject, and where NTOSC comes down on it. The refining of the principles, what they are, what Chiropractic IS and what it is not.
    I think that part of what I’ll say appeal of let’s say traditional chiropractic, putting the concept of one cause to Disease aside, is the embracing of creationism, or the spiritual need so many of us urn for as a perhaps amalgamation into the chiropractic realm.
    It reads well. It fills a void. It’s a little less dry. The analogies come to life a little more, which is so important as mentioned in a deductive analysis.
    Sometimes a word like UNIVERSAL, when not fully charged, or engulfed, becomes almost vague in its profound generalization.
    So anyway that at least left or leaves me with the reading of some passages from RWS with a more pictorial or greater connection to the concepts embraced by WORDS like universal or innate or intelligence or organization, etc.
    Getting that kardia or epignostic understanding in your blood, in your breath, in your heart is not an easy ADIO task.
    Anyway I’ll leave you with these thoughts of optimism, that being myself, just like any other Joe(no pun intended), perhaps in time, with more story telling, and more time, being able on a personal note, or a lets say with a more effective logical freedom, to be able to read an RWS, with the critical analysis and refinement of a JS, and further discussion does enable me to get closer, in time to be able to Unlearn and Learn and be able to LACVS Period, with more focus, ambition, and purpose with that something extra, that is uniquely mine, which perhaps is my connection to Chiropractic, me, the chiropractor being able to walk MY walk, which is so necessary to posses, to own, to be transformed into a living, breathing, innately expressing human being, and BEING a Chiropractor and a man in greater peace with the paradoxes that do exist, intuitively being a more effective role model and conveyor of truth to people and more directly to PM’s.
    It all goes into the sauce.
    Maybe the words Carry On Adio, in time will have more meaning, represent a greater and more effective drive in me, in time.
    And it is taking time. 😉

    • Joe Strauss 11/29/2014, 2:34 pm:

      David, do you think that “… the embracing of creationism, or the spiritual need so many of us urn (sic) for as a perhaps amalgamation into the chiropractic realm….” is a(n) yearning/ effort to reconcile our chiropractic with theological/religious beliefs or to reconcile those beliefs to chiropractic?

      • David Suskin 11/30/2014, 11:55 am:

        Joe,
        I misunderstood. For me, definitely the latter.
        If think that for those chiropractors who bear a strong, I’ll say organized, religious faith (eg. Judeo/Christian, denomination variations, etc. ), they might wrestle with the former. For those who do not (me), it’s most definitely the latter.

    • Claude 11/29/2014, 3:57 pm:

      David,

      Did you ever notice that ALL the ingredients melt into the “gravy” as it cooks in the pot for several hours… the olive oil, garlic, basil, oregano, tomatoes, hot pepper, cheese, etc… ALL become ONE? That’s exactly what will happen to YOU when it is you WHO choose hold the tension of the paradoxes within your NEW container of your educated brain. It is then that the ACTIVITY (educated mind)within your educated brain will be congruent with the creative ways that you will organize the story to be told over and over and over and over again. Carry on! ADIO. 😉

      • David Suskin 11/29/2014, 4:04 pm:

        Thank you for that Claude.
        I remember when the chiropractors were on the gravy train ($$$).
        Perhaps your gravy, being on another track, is the one I am traveling on.
        No. Let me restate that.
        It IS the track I am traveling on, as my story, our story, chiropractics story is told over and over again, from within

        • Claude 11/29/2014, 4:59 pm:

          David,

          Just like the EPR (Einstein, Poldosky and Rosen) paradox points to the probability of the limitation of the absolute speed of light (beleived to be the highest, invariant speed in the universe), it is the Bell’s theorem that distinguishes between “local hidden variable theories and quantum mechanics”. The former are theories that posit objectively real parts of a system that ça be isolated from one another. This EPR paradox was tested at the University of Paris and resulted in showing that the quantum-theoretical predictions were indeed obeyed. –

          – This compels us to renounce the theory that nothing travels faster the the speed of light! What does this have to do with “maintaining in existence”? Well, for example, N.C. Petronius and J.P. Bogies suggest the possibility of “exchange of information” occurring faster than the speed of light. From the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, it corroborated by principle #8,9 and 10). In time, as we hold the paradoxes. it is ALL pointing to the chiropractc objective. 😉

          • Claude 11/29/2014, 5:02 pm:

            Auto correct misspelled NC Petroni and JP Vigier

          • David Suskin 11/29/2014, 6:25 pm:

            Claude,
            With respect to:
            Well, for example, N.C. Petronius and J.P. Bogies suggest the possibility of “exchange of information” occurring faster than the speed of light. From the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, it corroborated by principle #8,9 and 10).
            Are you saying that this is corroborated because the process of
            8. The Function of Intelligence – The function of intelligence is to create force.
            9. The Amount of Force Created by Intelligence – The amount of force created by intelligence is always 100%.
            10. The Function of Force – The function of force is to unite intelligence and matter.
            Because intelligence precedes existence therefore it must arrive at its destination before, therefore must have a greater speed for matter to exist within the constant of the speed of light? OR:????

      • Joe Strauss 11/29/2014, 7:21 pm:

        Only an Italian would call tomato sauce “gravy”! That’s what comes about from mixed marriages, an Italian and a French Canadian. Isn’t it strange that with tomato sauce you can taste all the individual ingredients but with a gravy, they seem to disappear. Even my mom’s famous ham gravy which had ginger ale in it , which gave it a zing, but you could not taste it. There must be a chiropractic message in there somewhere.

        • Claude 11/29/2014, 7:46 pm:

          David,

          A universal IS in ALL e/matter (pri1) implies simultaneity. No preceding. Therefore intelligence creates instructive information ONLY… which is faster than the speed of light. How about that for chiropractic being ALWAYS at the cutting edge of reality. 😉

          • David Suskin 11/29/2014, 7:56 pm:

            Claude,
            Not to belabor, I never belabor 🙂
            BUT
            Are you saying that simultaneous implies faster?? And
            And if intelligence creates instructive information, then as it applies to universal intelligence, I thought that intelligences creates force so how does instructive information lead to a creation of universal force?

  4. David Suskin 11/29/2014, 3:57 pm:

    Joe,
    I’m suggesting it. In the same way that people, myself included, FEEL so violated by sickness, medications, manipulations by so called authorities (medicine), OIBU values, vulnerabilities, and the emptiness of the 9-5 rat race, the stresses of life causing people to hope or look for less invasive, more optimistic, empowering health alternatives that the so called new age movement lends itself to. An answer to the human condition.
    It’s a subconscious fear of being out of control that many times causes spiritual rediscovery or identification amplification, IMO. The fact or truth found in a spiritual domain is not the issue. It’s the interest in it, or the seeking it, which is what I’m referring to.
    So, yes. Chiropractic, given a spiritual identity lends itself to a more empowering reality, whether that reality, factually is true or false.
    Yet, the 33-philosophy, without the creation of matter concepts, which is where the OSC is focusing on today, is cleaner, non medical, non-therapeutic, non theological abstractions and descriptions of the principles, which I think requires profound and empowering metaphors and analogies, plus study to really GET IT, To Get The Big Idea.
    It’s a challenge.
    Should I have just said YES 🙂

    • Joe Strauss 12/01/2014, 10:10 am:

      David, how can anyone knowing Prin.#17 ever feel violated. BJ said “when man violates man’s laws, we send him to Jail and point the finger of scorn at him. When he violates natures’ laws we put him in a hospital and send him flowers. Odd isn’t it?” When/if I am sick, it is because of bad choices I have made or innate intelligence’s response in adapting to those choices. Why is it we are willing to give over the function of our body to our innate intelligence but want to retain the right to choose using our finite, fallible educated brain?

      • David Suskin 12/01/2014, 11:37 am:

        Joe,
        I always here this premise, that thoughts precede emotions.
        But then there is the personality descriptions of people as being
        An eternal optimist or eternal pessimist.
        I don’t really know that comes first. Logically, I’d have to say thoughts.
        But experientially, feelings.
        Feelings like violation, or the all encompassing one, Vulnerability, these ok we’ll call them meme’s, engrams, whatever. They sit in the subconscious and rear their ugly head sometimes that even with
        Your logic of p17 applied to people’s responsibilities as it applies to ii adapting to perhaps LOM’s, etc.
        it’s not only oneself that effects us all, it’s your families, and others that one might worry about. Yes it’s true, that many of our reactions are projected onto others so dealing with número uno (oneself) is perhaps the best start.
        To make a harsh example. Man gets into a car accident, looses a leg, now has a prosthetic leg for the rest of his life. He never gets over it. Completely. He understands innate, he understands LOM, but oh, that’s a silly example. There are so many infinite examples of the glass half full vs the glass half empty.
        So feel more or less continuously blessed, others wallow in the what ifs and anticipated things that Could come, negatively.
        I guess if you live, if you truly have transformed to an ADIO viewpoint then all might be understood, and OK.
        But I’d guess, for most. Problems!
        But I’ll say you are correct, think about it and perhaps integrate that concept more.
        I welcome your reply Joseph.

        • David Suskin 12/01/2014, 12:01 pm:

          Or should I say more succinctly,
          one should not cry over spilt milk,
          but they do anyway, or might

      • David Suskin 12/01/2014, 6:49 pm:

        Joe,
        That’s why I am NOT willing to give over the function of my body to my innate intelligence, because my experiences in Living have influence my NEED to retain the right to choose using my finite, fallible educated brain.
        I’d call that, the inability to Surrender.
        I think it’s a very predominant viewpoint or experience. That’s the mistrust in the outside world, and the mistrust in the inside world (self doubt, insecurity, etc.)
        As a Chiropractor it’s been a schism I think.
        Perhaps that’s the NEED, subconsciously to fuse I’ll say a spiritual, (healing physical and psychological) domain to Chiropractic.
        You either are a Chiropractic Physician >> and use OI Therapy to manage patients and your own life OR you maintain a Traditional Chiropractic viewpoint.
        For me, working with the philosophy, NOW, I understand the OSC paradigm. It’s validity. BUT the Unleaning or surrendering part, well, It’s a tough one. It demands MAJOR Transformation. I can be close, yet still so far away. Claude speaking about handling the paradoxes!
        It’s very emotionally difficult.
        Am I making sense here Joseph?
        Do YOU have further suggestions for me (I am not alone).
        I will be ordering that book you referred me to: ontemporary Chiropractic Philosophy
        I welcome your comments

  5. Claude Lessard 11/29/2014, 9:52 pm:

    David,

    You said: “I thought that intelligences creates force” and it does. The nature of force IS instructive information, which is metaphysical and immaterial (CONFIGURATION and VELOCITY of electrons, protons and neutrons of e/matter, (including light which is comprised of electrons, protons and neutrons) which move faster than the speed of light as intelligence, force and e/matter are separate and distinct from one another and intrinsic to one another. Try to wrap your educated brain around this if you can. 😉 –

    – It becomes apparent when you understand that the nature of intelligence and its function are metaphysical within the triune (pri4). It is at the RECEIVING of properties and actions by e/matter that the instructive information (force) has a physical component to it, caused by principle #6 as those forces interface with e/matter. Then not only does e/matter expresses the instructive information created by intelligence (pri13), these instructive information are MANIFESTED (pri14), in time, (pri6) by MOTION in e/matter (pri15). The creation of instructive information by intelligence UNITING intelligence and e/matter happens immediately since a universal intelligence IS in ALL e/matter. It is WHEN e/matter MANIFEST instructive information by MOTION (pri14) that it is done mediately, in time (pri6). Thus, there can be interference with universal forces (instructive information) (pri12) NOT at the EXPRESSION level (pri13), because of the law conservation of e/matter. The interference with universal forces (instructive information) (pri12) occurs at the MANIFESTATION of MOTION level by e/matter (pri14 and 15). –

    – In other words, e/matter ALWAYS exists (pri1), is never created nor destroyed (law of conservation of e/matter) and therefore ALWAYS expresses instructive information created by intelligence (pri13). A universal intelligence IS in ALL e/matter and CONTINUALLY gives to it ALL its properties and actions (instructive information that configures the electrons, protons and neutrons and their specific velocities), thus maintaining it in existence (pri1). And the existence of e/matter is MANIFESTED by a specific MOTION of e/matter (pri14) PROCESSED by the instructive information (force) created by intelligence (pri8) that can be interfered with (pri12) as it interface with e/matter in time (pro.6). The same procedure applies to “living things” with innate intelligence, with the exception that innate intelligence does not maintain existence, hence innate intelligence does NOT create instructive information (force). Innate intelligence adapts the ALREADY existing universal forces and e/matter (pri23) by coding it and vesting it with an innate character for use in the body and for coordination of actions.

  6. David Suskin 11/29/2014, 10:53 pm:

    Claude,
    1. I have to re-read very carefully what you wrote. As I always do. It’s good good detail from the without condemnation exploration of the 33 from the educated int of Claude Lessard
    2. If e/matter is never created nor destroyed, then are you saying that it has existed always, infinitely, or is Big Bang of the bang responsible for the existence of matter (but what was here before? Just intelligence? God?) or is that one of the many paradoxes that one must contain as you have referred too, or
    Like I said, if intelligence creates force which is expressed by e/matter to maintain matter in existence, and since you theorize that Adio is uni directional, therefore intelligence exited before force before matter (in motion)-existence, therefore it’s possible that intelligence created matter too.
    ***note – the abstraction of properties and actions define all things, ALL things. Those are the encapsulations that define the abstraction of objects that are instanciated by data to create objects.
    ***note – it’s not the immaterial, the intelligence, the feeling, experience and perception(as in life forms), but it is the existence of the object or in this case, the matter
    3. Innate int might not create force,but adapt it in a code, in that it does not maintain existence of e/matter BUT it does maintain the existence of Living matter, so adaptation of universal force is really creation of innate instructive information TO adapt universal force because in essence we’re talking about the existence of Life (living matter) (repeated myself)
    4. Personal question Claude – do you have a theological orientation that integrates into P1. Don’t have to answer, of course.

    • Claude 11/30/2014, 8:22 pm:

      David,

      The law of conservation of e/matter IS contained within the law of organization called universal intelligence. It is part of “configuring the subatomic particles with their velocities”. It’s the same for the law of gravity, the law of fusion, the law of thermodynamics, the law of ACTIVE organization, etc. ALL laws are contained within the law of organization. That’s HOW universal intelligence maintains ALL e/matter in existence! –

      – Since it is through OBSERVATION and inductive reasoning that the major premise was put into words, chiropractic is apprehendable by ALL theological constructs. The law of organization (universal intelligence) that maintains ALL e/matter in EXISTENCE can be OBSERVED consciously by anyone WHO chooses to do so and can become the existential and biological realities of ALL theological orientations. The law of organization is NOT a means of transcending life as we know it, the law of organization IS to maintain ALL e/mater (living and mon-living) in existence. Therefore from an ADIO world view point, the major premise can be apprended by anyone WHO chooses to do so! 🙂

  7. David Suskin 11/30/2014, 9:06 pm:

    Claude,
    Interesting!
    So chiropractic is in essence P2-33?
    Or?
    Question:
    You have made reference to DNA, etc. as a manifestation of active organization being maintained. This is a reference to an intelligent process existing. (Either of ui, or ii or ii through ui)?
    Organization is to be observed EVERYWHERE! Atomically, living structures. You have discussed the effect of ui and perhaps the adapting intelligence of ii, to be effecting the velocities of atomic structures and perhaps other intelligent adaptations. I’d appreciate your comments here.
    Within the principles we make little if no reference to creation, in other words, we observe this organization in matter, non-living and living. Thus we observe and deduce the process of maintaining (existing), but cannot deduce more than that (creationism, intelligent evolution (I’ll call it),etc. It is not within the Authority so we can maintain Chiropractic as LACVS Period.

    • Claude 11/30/2014, 10:06 pm:

      David,

      In past posts, I do mention that the major premise is a universal premise that belongs to the universe. It just so happened that it was put into words by chiropractors. Indeed, chiropractic appropriates the major premise as its start point when it deduces the chiropractic meaning of existence (pri2). Anyone has the right to appropriate the major premise as it is a universal principle.

    • Joe Strauss 12/01/2014, 9:40 am:

      David, you wrote “So chiropractic is in essence P2-33?” David B. Koch in his excellent book Contemporary Chiropractic Philosophy, an Introduction presents Stephenson’s 33 Principles (with some order change, Principles 1-17) as Universal Principles. He further categorizes (with some order changes) #18-30 and #33 as biological principles. Lastly he categorizes Stephenson’s principles 31 and 32 as chiropractic principles. While I do not agree with everything in the book, I would recommend you read this 2008 text. It is published by the Roswell Publishing Company and available through Life University Bookstore.

      • David Suskin 12/01/2014, 11:16 am:

        Joe,
        I appreciate that Joe. I will 🙂

      • David Suskin 12/10/2014, 2:33 am:

        Joe,
        It sure has been quiet these past days. I still wait for a comment on Steve’s question concerning Cycles.
        Anyway, I just received and started to read the book you recommended to me, that being Koch’s, Contemporary Chiro Philosophy.
        A very interesting read and I thank you for recommending it.
        After a while, nothing makes sense in that it all becomes left brain words with Zero connection. The right brain, educatedly interpreted, just SHUTS DOWN!
        His discussion to concretize the 33 into a logical deductive syllogism instead of a series of perhaps debatably ordered principles or arguments for discussion is a welcomed addition to ones, or should I say my epignostic understanding of The Authority.
        Haven’t finished it and of course I continue to ebb and flow in my learning by reading and re-reading. I welcome your agreements, difference of opinion and comments as usual.
        Thank you again.

  8. David Suskin 12/01/2014, 12:42 am:

    Claude,
    But are the arguments that let’s say RWS presents early on in his textbook, that involve creation of matter hold logical, deductive validity, based on P1 a major premise, in your opinion and analysis, I ask without condemnation?

    • Claude 12/01/2014, 3:17 am:

      David,

      Theomorphism has NO place in chiropractic. Period! It’s the same with what BJ did with anthropomorphism. “She, innate” has NEVER been and will NEVER be! “We, Innate and I” will NEVER be! Do you know WHY? The reason is that innate intelligence is law, and as such, it is ACTING without “desire, judgement, intent” or anything a human being would do. Innate intelligence ONLY acts to supply the need of the body of the “living thing” to keep it alive (pri21). RWS’ argument holds NO value duty whatsoever unless universal intelligence is God… which it is ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! –

      – Do, you understand WHY they (D.D., B.J., and R.W.S)! did that then, in the 1920s?

  9. David Suskin 01/11/2015, 1:51 pm:

    P21 states
    …Intelligence is to maintain the material of the body of a “living thing” in active organization…:
    As I now understand p1s usage of the word ‘maintain’ meaning just that and NOT creation, and that e/matter is not created or destroyed, how is the word ‘maintain’ used in the context of active organization? Does that mean once subluxation occurs and the mission of in innate intelligence is now altered, that living matter No longer is being maintained in active organization? Does that mean death of living matter? Then what law allows creation of new living matter such as in a healing process?
    I understand creation of force. I understand coordination of parts allowing mutual benefit. But is it black and white with regard to loss of active organization. No maintaining! Is that what we mean by partial death? Is it p18, growth as a sign of life, that allows creation of new matter if subluxation is Corrected?
    There is no creation of matter in p1. How does healing get im

    • Claude 01/11/2015, 4:32 pm:

      David,

      …”to maintain in ACTIVE organization means “to maintain ALIVE”. We’ve been through this before. Think of the innate instructive information as “giving rise to living forms” so that pri21 is maintaining the body of the “living thing” ALIVE. Very rarely does VS causes immediate cessation of being ALIVE. Principles 6 and 24 part of the equation also.

      • David Suskin 01/11/2015, 5:38 pm:

        Claude,
        So maintaining ALIVE is either yes or no. 100% or 0% (dead).
        There is no partial p21.
        What increments depending on subluxation, LOM IS
        P23!
        Correct?
        Also could you comment on my previous post if possible
        http://chiropracticoutsidethebox.com/2012/08/06/qa-27-the-major-premise-2/#comment-20342
        And Claude,
        Thank you for your patience. I’ve come a long long way. And I owe quite a lot of it to your availability.
        Always thank you 😉
        Carry on

        • Claude 01/12/2015, 12:04 am:

          David,
          Do the same thing with your PMs! 😉

          • David Suskin 01/12/2015, 12:44 am:

            What’s that?
            Badger them?
            Be Available?
            Allow them to come along way, by LACVS for full expression of innate intelligence. Period.?
            anyway Claudius, correct?? And
            P1? UI, giving properties and actions to matter?
            A property and an action are characteristics and methods that can be defined in 2015 and perhaps intended to be defined in 1895, Without Values! No Data. Just abstractions that define potential for form depending on the input of Values, Data.
            Am I to assume that p1 implies that those properties and actions to be attaining their values from intelligence, from force, from matter, from all 3, or do you not understand my drilling down further into this principle, or what? Sir?

  10. David Suskin 01/11/2015, 1:55 pm:

    Implied. Once active organization is affected. How does, does it, can it get returned if there is no principle of creation of matter.
    A full expression of ii would seem to hit the wall of LOM endlessly as p21 fails because of subluxation and there is no provision for new cells, new life, unless signs of life covers that.
    Understand?

    • Claude Lessard 01/12/2015, 12:03 pm:

      David,

      Tell the story over and over and over and over and over again in as many creative (read “à la Coltrane”) ways as doable to WHO you choose to tell it to. 😉

  11. David Suskin 01/12/2015, 3:49 pm:

    Claude,
    Ya know, ya keep hitting my weak spot when you mention JC. NO, not that JC! John Coltrane JC. 🙂
    Yes I know, don’t take the horn out of my mouth. Keep practicing and blowin. BUT on a direct me to you, you to me thing, called QUESTION, ANSWER (if possible)!!! and as I choose to go deeper into the meaning of the 33 principles, so I, so WE can have the furthest breath possible of the FACTS that it bears, may I readdress my question to you, once more…
    As I stated:
    With regards to P1, The Major Premise. UI giving properties and actions to matter?
    A property and an action are characteristics and methods that can be defined in 2015 and perhaps implied or as I could infer to have been defined in 1895, that abstractions and ARE Without Values! No Data. These aspects of matter, as stated, are abstractions that define potential for form depending on the input of Values, Data.
    Read P1 and tell me what it conjures up. I see that hole, if you will, suggesting what I have said. Read it! What do YOU infer?
    Am I to assume that p1 implies that those properties and actions are attaining their values from intelligence, from force, from matter, from all 3, or do you not understand my drilling down further into this principle, or what?
    As I have asked before, perhaps in a different way:
    http://chiropracticoutsidethebox.com/2012/08/06/qa-27-the-major-premise-2/#comment-20342
    I do request your opinion on this Claude?
    As I tell the story over and over, I do find holes in my story that I would like to fill with some intellect, some truth, on my part that is enabled by discussion and my questioning areas that I ponder.
    I’d appreciate a comment, over and over I know, but it all helps, brother 😉

    • Claude 01/12/2015, 3:59 pm:

      David,

      Principle #5 😉

  12. David Suskin 01/12/2015, 4:29 pm:

    Claude,
    I don’t follow 🙁
    You’re saying it’s ALL 3? And if so P1 could only imply my analysis by drawing focus into the actuality of Existence.
    If something exists, and it does, then SOMETHING would have to populate the data of the properties and actions. SOMETHING!
    You’re saying that because of the Perfection, that Something is Somewhere within the actuality of p5. Somewhere within the actuality of the perfection of the relationships and all having to be 100%?? OR
    What Prof? What?
    I told you. Computer science defines properties and actions as encapsulated abstractions, THAT HAVE NO DATA. It’s the creation of the object, in chiropractic principles case, it’s the maintaining matter in existence that HAS TO pull Value to these properties and actions? My question, is from where? Intelligence? Force? Matter? All 3??
    You’re saying its All three? p5, or the Perfection that implies that fact, or somewhere in between the cracks. BUT this is philosophy so we look to understand exactly where, what and why, as much as possible, otherwise, what’s the point of having a philosophy in the first place?
    SO? Prof? Are you gonna say principle #5 Again? 😉

    • Claude Lessard 01/12/2015, 6:38 pm:

      David,

      Yes I am! 😉

  13. David Suskin 01/12/2015, 6:56 pm:

    Claude,
    Does what I have said = p5?
    Am I missing something?
    OR
    Guess I don’t understand p5 🙁
    I don’t want to tell the wrong story over and over.
    I want to tell the right story.
    I’ll stop asking

    • Claude Lessard 01/12/2015, 7:30 pm:

      David,

      It is me WHO choose to abide by the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science. It is me WHO choose NOT to go beyond the major premise. Creation is be going beyond the major premise. Principle #5 deduced that existence is complete! EVERYTHING is there… abstractions and ALL else, regardless of WHAT computer science says. By the way, David, the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science is ENOUGH to tell the right story. The 33 principles ARE the rite story… nothing more, nothing less, nothing else! Get it? Or as Coltrane would say: “You can play a shoe string if you’re sincere”. 😉

      • David Suskin 01/12/2015, 8:09 pm:

        Claude,
        I love where you get these created Coltrane quotes. Where do you get this stuff? Now that, you have to tell me more specifically, besides it coming from the mind of Claude 😉
        p5, existence complete! hmmmmm
        You analyze everything, EVERYTHING! Why do you pick and choose what you’ll skip over and what you won’t.
        I know, I know. I embark on the paralysis of analysis. I know this. and I know that my OI orientation, my dipsycho gets the better of me. I know this. The plus side is that discoveries can be made. Further integration of the 33 p’s into MY LIFE happens with these exchanges. You know this.
        I guess you don’t need to separate properties and actions into further detail. I am, only because it hit me, reading the Major Premise. Where does it imply the VALUES of the properties and the actions?
        I mean, we can just end the conversation by saying, All we can be sure of is death and taxes, but WE DON’T. Because we’re looking for truth. Truth to live by, truth to practice by, truth to communicate. Trying to be the Normal expression of ii fully expressed, in harmony, in transformation, if that’s what takes place as we grow, as Human Beings.
        Ok i honor your decision to let the 33 p’s stand on their own, perfectly.
        But then why do we go into the protons and thermodynamics and the expression of Artists like a Coltrane or a Miro or an Einstein, etc. Because that’s what happens to US when we tell this story over and over. Come on Claude, you can stay deep. You don’t have to cop out and say the 33 says it all, no more no less. I know that, BUT we’re working it out. All of Us. BJ didn’t have all the right answers, and neither do we (I assume). So let’s dig and keep digging, like Coltrane. Dig? 😉

        • Claude 01/12/2015, 9:09 pm:

          David, David, David…

          The truth is way beyond the major premise… waaayyy beeeyyyyooonnnddd! It is me WHO accept the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science. It serves the public very well! 😉

          • Claude 01/12/2015, 9:11 pm:

            … guess WHO said: “The truth itself doesn’t have any name on it to me”. 😉

          • David Suskin 01/12/2015, 10:32 pm:

            Yes Claude. John Coltrane. Trane!
            How do you know you’re going in the direction of The Truth?
            ADIO?

          • David Suskin 01/12/2015, 10:54 pm:

            Claude, Claude, Claude,
            So for example, what no named truthed direction is waaaaaay beyond the Major Premise?
            Creation?
            Where educated hooks into the unexplainable? The experiencial?
            Love? God? Further study of the immaterial?
            Do you have any reading suggestions, creative endeavors to suggest?
            I know we’re on a 33 p blog, but this is important. I think. So let’s go.
            Give me some motif to grab on to.
            Come on Claude. I’m asking for a little more concrete direction. I understand. We’re just people, unique people.
            Offer me a suggestion. It can be chiropractic. It can be a book of poetry,
            Or Scriabin or Brahms, or Coltranes Peace on Earth or Amen or Naima or Impressions or Kandinsky
            Talk to me. The time is Now.

          • Joe Strauss 01/13/2015, 2:58 pm:

            Good comment Claude.:” …authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science. It serves the public very well! “ I might add, for what it’s intended to do, explain the philosophy of chiropractic and the basis for its objective, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. It’s not meant to be the practice medicine or a theological belief.

  14. David Suskin 01/12/2015, 7:27 pm:

    Claude,
    I’m telling – THE DATA IS IN THE MATTER. HOW THE DATA IS ARRANGED, INTO A PROPERTY OR ACTION, THAT COMES FROM THE INTELLIGENCE, which creates force, which unites intelligence with matter (data), which is expressed by matter.
    Morse Code dot’s and dashes are data >> matter
    The meaning of the arrangements of this data to communicate a message, to be expressed, that’s intelligence (UI), or in the case of (II), the mental impulse(intelligence – immaterial) transmitting over a nerve impulse (matter – material).
    Actually the Data has to have reference, has to mean something.
    It’s not really the data in matter. It’s the physical representation of something that intelligence understands it to be a quantity or a quality that it can then apply to a property or action.
    p5? less is more?
    seems I break the rule every day.
    so Now I’ll be quiet

  15. Claude 01/12/2015, 11:24 pm:

    David,

    Ask Joseph to send you “The Nature of Man”.

  16. David Suskin 01/13/2015, 12:00 am:

    Claude,
    I found Joes ‘The nature of man’ on amazon and purchased it, oh a while ago. I told Joe about that. He was surprised. Anyway I briefly went thru some of it. It’s an interesting read into a theological integration with chiropractic. It’s due for a re look.
    Are you of the same religious viewpoint as Joe?
    What about that book perks Your interest Claude?

    • Claude Lessard 01/13/2015, 1:38 am:

      David,

      I will post the last part of TRANE’s quote: “The truth itself doesn’t have any name on it to me. And each man has to find it for himself, I think”.

      Sorry, you have to go it yourself on this one. COTB is about chiropractic and it’s objective… AND, it start point is the major premise. Either you accept that or you don’t. It is me WHO choose to accept the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science. The chiropractic objective is to: LACVS for a full expression of the innate FORCES of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD!

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