Theology and Chiropractic Phlosophy

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To drag theological questions/issues into chiropractic philosophical discussion is divisive and unfair to both chiropractic and theology.

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Posted in: Thinking Straight

This article has 28 comments

  1. David Suskin 11/11/2015, 11:06 pm:

    Since a philosophical discussion aims to clarify and perhaps expand and engage new thought, why should any category or subject be deemed unapproachable?
    There is no such thing as a wrong question if we are truly an expression of intelligence and conflict clarifies.

    • Claude Lessard 11/12/2015, 1:50 am:

      David,

      Unless Joseph corrects me, this blog is NOT about philosophy. CHiropractic Outside The Box is about CHIROPRACTIC philosophy.

      • Claude Lessard 11/12/2015, 1:55 am:

        … and theology is going beyond Chiropractic philosophy. The start point of chiropractic is the major premise. The end point of chiropractic is the chiropractic objective! 😉

  2. David Suskin 11/12/2015, 10:22 am:

    Is the question Does Perfection Exist?
    A theological question, a philosophical question and/or a chiropractic philosophical question?
    Am I being divicive or unfair? I think not!
    And you(s) say!

    • Claude Lessard 11/12/2015, 4:00 pm:

      David,

      According to the authority of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, perfection does exist as per principle #5: “The Perfection of the Triune”. That should be enough to practice the chiropractic objective. PERIOD! 😉

  3. David Suskin 11/12/2015, 4:45 pm:

    Claude,
    P5 deducts from P1
    P1 Assumes perfection or completeness of Intelligence yes/no
    Because that it was we are inspired to perceive or to observe does not make it so. yes/no
    Therefore P1 takes on as our MP a purely philosophical supposition? yes/no
    or a Theological supposition yes/no
    The leap of faith? yes/no
    I’m not trying to be divisive and unfair, just accurate or no-stone unturned.
    How Big is the A in ADIO?

    • Claude Lessard 11/12/2015, 6:14 pm:

      David,

      That is WHY, it is me WHO chose to challenge you and everyone else, to inquire deeply within yourself as to whether or not you ACCEPT the universal major premise as an a priori statement appropriated by chiropractic as its start point. If you do, then move on until
      you conclude the end point of chiropractic which is its objective. If you don’t accept the major premise, then prove it illogical, irrational and wrong.

  4. Rich Story 11/13/2015, 7:32 pm:

    Theology : a system of religious beliefs or ideas

    Pretty much what the 33 Principles are… A belief system. A set of commandments asking people to accept an intangible outcome if they follow them. Only difference I can see is religion promises life everlasting and chiropractic promises life as a fuller expression of innate. Both require a leap of faith. Afterall, DD wanted to go the religion route to avoid persecution by medicine.

    • Joe Strauss 11/14/2015, 12:30 pm:

      Rich, which of the 33 principles do you not believe/accept and why not? How did you First accept that 1 plus 1 equals 2? I used a belief system. In fact I still use it every night when I go to bed, regardless of how many times I empirically hear Annie sing “The sun will come up tomorrow.”

      • Claude Lessard 11/14/2015, 5:25 pm:

        Rich,

        Which one of the 33 principles is a commandment commanding you to do anything in order to get anything? –

        • Rich Story 11/14/2015, 9:18 pm:

          Claude,

          A commandment in the sense of following the church doctrine. The only real commandments I know of are taxes and death.

          • Claude Lessard 11/15/2015, 1:25 am:

            Rich,

            I do understand and I want to get what you have to say. It is important to me. We have inquired at length, on CTOB in past posts, into the question of whether or not chiropractic is a religion, You may want to read them all… and I welcome your comments or input.

      • Rich Story 11/14/2015, 9:19 pm:

        Principle 1.

        • Claude Lessard 11/15/2015, 3:58 am:

          Principle 1 is ASSUMED from an observation that the properties and actions of e/matter are maintaining e/matter in existence as a result of the law of organization called universal intelligence. This law creates information that unites intelligence and e/matter so that e/matter can exist. In other words, e/matter cannot exist without this law.

          • Claude Lessard 11/15/2015, 4:03 am:

            … if it is you WHO choose to accept this major premise, then by using rational logic, you can move on to the subsequent principles and realize for yourself that none of them ask anything of you, not even to LACVS.

  5. Rich Story 11/16/2015, 6:38 pm:

    Claude,

    I understand that you choose to accept the chiropractic philosophical doctrine as your guiding light. My problem is that science has identified the physical properties and laws governing matter and it can no longer just be attributed to some magical intelligence that is responsible for animating the universe. This of course, affects all of the principles based on the first principle. Once something is known, it can’t be un-known. Coming from that perspective creates a problem with just accepting a historical premise and carrying on business as usual.

    • Rich Story 11/17/2015, 12:11 am:

      Claude,

      I saw you posted a reply on the sidebar, but can’t find it anywhere in the blog.

  6. Claude 11/16/2015, 11:35 pm:

    Rich,

    What is magical about the law of organization, the law of gravity, the law of conservation of energy/matter, the law of aerodynamics, the law of thermodynamics? If you were to read those past posts, you may “see” that science is validating the major premise (minus its metaphysical component of course). Perhaps using the term metaphysical instead of magical might help you accept the major premise which is based observation using rational logic and deductive reasoning. 😉

    • Rich Story 11/17/2015, 12:27 am:

      Oops…now it pops up! Sorry about that.

      To answer that post, you are mixing a belief in with a physical law. There is no “law of organization” that I know of, except maybe in pyschology or business. From what I understand, in physics, organization is a result of the universal forces, of which there are four; electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, and gravitational force. The law of Organization doesn’t seem to be mentioned. As far as using the term metaphysical instead of magical… the meaning is categorically the same. Metaphysical is a term to define theoretical, supernatural or an abstract reality that is beyond what is perceptible to the senses. So, I am fine with magical.

      • Claude Lessard 11/17/2015, 1:05 am:

        Theorical indeed. Theory of relativity. Chaos theory. String theory. –

        – The laws you mentioned are the one known… so far and might be recapitulated once NEW laws are OBERVED by physicists. Let the magic go on within your scientific inner sanctum. Since you do not recognize the law of organization, what is it that you practice as a chiropractor?

        • Rich Story 11/20/2015, 2:33 am:

          I practice what I think is “physiology based chiropractic”. I evaluate a person’s postural physiology and work to balance it. If what I do helps the person function better, reduce imbalance, reduce pain or discomfort and helps them to perform their normal activities better, I have achieved my goal. Philosophically, I guess this would fall under the category of helping them be a better expression of their potential, but I would have no way of knowing what their potential is or if they have a vertebral subluxation or they don’t… no real way to tell. One thing though, if their physiology improves and they feel better, it’s a way to gauge if I have helped them or not.

      • Claude Lessard 11/17/2015, 6:06 am:

        Rich,

        You posted: ” From what I understand, in physics, organization is a result of the universal forces, of which there are four; electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, and gravitational force.” –

        – At last, physicists are validating principle #10, in which universal forces are bits of information giving properties and actions to e/matter that maintains them in existence by uniting intelligence and e/matter. After all, electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, and gravitational force are created forces, information that is produced by a source intelligent enough to organize the universe. 😉 –

        – Let’s face it, just as different ways of interpreting the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, various types of truth (empirical, philosophical, mythic) are valuable for different purposes, so scientific THEORIES (read beliefs) have different applications while seeming to be paradoxical and irreconcilable. For example, we have the Newtonian theory of gravity, Einstein’s theory of relativity, and quantum theory. Physicists know that each of them is true, yet they don’t fit together and each is limited and partial. Newtonian mechanics can’t model or predict the behavior of massive or quickly moving objects. Relativity does this well, but doesn’t apply to very, very small things. Quantum mechanics succeeds on the micro level. But we don’t yet have an adequate THEORY for understanding very small, very energetic, very massive phenomenon, such as black holes. Scientists are still in search of a UNIFIED THEORY (read unified belief) of the universe. Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist and cosmologist, believes human beings have an innate drive to make sense of the world. Yet, he says:

        “Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe what the universe is to ask why. On the other hand, the people whose business it is to ask why, the philosophers have not been able to keep up with the advance of scientific theory. . . . If we do discover a complete THEORY (of the universe), it should in time be understandable in broad PRINCIPLE by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason–for then we would know the mind of God.” (emphasis mine). Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, A Brief History of Time (Bantam Dell: 2005), 142. –

        – Perhaps the terms properties and actions are really “quantum entanglement” something that we have long intuited, but science has only recently OBSERVED. Here is the principle: in the world of quantum physics, it appears that one particle of any entangled pair “knows” what is happening to another paired particle–even though there is no known means for such information to be communicated between the particles, which are separated by sometimes very large distances. It so riled Einstein that he called this: “Spooky actions at a distance”. Could this be what is happening when the mental impulse flows from brain cell to tissue cell? –

        – Scientists don’t know how far this phenomenon applies beyond very rare particles, but quantum entanglement hints at a universe where everything is ORGANIZED and relates to everything within that universe, in interconnectivity, if you will, and also where that interconnectivity can be interfered with. Since the human body is a holon of the universe, therefore, both negative and positive entanglement in the universal e/matter, maybe even ultimately e/ matter. LACVS, the chiropractic objective, full expression of innate forces, all make sense on a whole new level. –

        – The major premise has long pointed to this entanglement. Properties of e/matter are unlimited configurations of electrons, protons and neutrons. Actions of e/matter are the unlimited velocities of the electrons, protons and neutrons of e/matter. There is apparently a positive inner connectedness within e/matter that we can OBSERVE (only) if we wish. –

        – ” If reality is nonlocal, as physicists seem to BELIEVE, that is, if things can affect one another despite distance or space-time coordinates, then existence is not composed of energy/material substances but deeply entangled fields of information; the nature of the universe is undivided wholeness.” I’ve often described this phenomenon as an experiential “force field” or “information field”. In chiropractic philosophy term, force field is foundationally described as the field of information between metaphysical intelligence and physical e/matter. One stays in this positive force field whenever one is free of VS and express fully the innate forces of the innate intelligence of the body. I know that when people stand in this place, when they are free of VS as their home base… the rest follows… and their lives are filled with “quantum entanglements” that result in very real healing, striving toward wholeness and NEW freedom for those whom they include in the force field with them. I have too many examples here to list or to even remember. Psychologist Carl Gustav Jung called these events “synchronicities”; lay peoples call them coincidences… chiropractic principle #32 calls these events, harmonious actions of all the parts of an organism. –

        – On the other end of the spectrum there are people WHO choose to carry empiricism wherever they go, toward all those they can pull into their sensate force field. For them, nothing is real unless they can see it, touch it, smell it, taste it or hear it. The fallacy of this strange phenomena is that if you ever took a walk with your dog, you soon realize that the dog see things that you don’t, smell things that you don’t and hear things that you don’t. So, during that walk with your dog, which of the two of you experience reality as it is? Which is real? What you see, smell and hear, or what your dog see, smell or hear? Soon, you realize that each time it is a conscious choice and a decision, at least to some degree. It is after all a matter of desire and intention. –

        – Educated intelligence, desire, and intentionality matter. It is we WHO must deliberately choose to be instruments of wholeness (read healing) –first of all in our educated intelligence and our educated mind. Such daring simplicity is quantum entanglement with the life and health of all vertebrates. We largely move toward both ease or a lack of ease by our choices. The chiropractic objective which is the LACVS for a full expression of the innate forces of the innate intelligence of the body. Period… is the force field that allows us to let go and allow reality to manifest through our intentions and actions. Once quantumly entangled, it seems we are entangled forever, which is why we give such finality and urgency to our choices for ease or lack of ease… coordination of action or lack of coordination of action. –

        – Ultimately it is you WHO will choose and that will make a world view of difference in your life as a chiropractor.

        • Rich Story 11/20/2015, 2:17 am:

          Claude,
          Your reply is quite involved. I will say it shows you are steadfast in your support of the principles and a proficient story teller. If you really understand something like Quantum Entanglement, my hat is off to you. I do know, neither the Palmers or Stephenson would have any clue of such things, when Einstein didn’t.
          There are additional statements in the 2005 version of Hawking’s book. In Chapter 9 of the updated “A Briefer History of Time”, Hawking makes this statement on handling previous mistakes:

          “What should you do when you find you have made a mistake like that? Some people never admit that they are wrong and continue to find new, and often mutually inconsistent, arguments to support their case – as Eddington did in opposing black hole theory. Others claim to have never really supported the incorrect view in the first place or, if they did, it was only to show that it was inconsistent. It seems to me much better and less confusing if you admit in print that you were wrong. A good example of this was Einstein, who called the cosmological constant, which he introduced when he was trying to make a static model of the universe, the biggest mistake of his life.”

          The section you partially quoted, stated in full reads:

          “Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe what the universe is to ask the question why. On the other hand, the people whose business it is to ask why, the philosophers, have not been able to keep up with the advance of scientific theories. In the eighteenth century, philosophers considered the whole of human knowledge, including science, to be their field and discussed questions such as: did the universe have a beginning? However, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, science became too technical and mathematical for the philosophers, or anyone else except a few specialists. Philosophers reduced the scope of their inquiries so much that Wittgenstein, the most famous philosopher of this century, said, “The sole remaining task for philosophy is the analysis of language.” What a comedown from the great tradition of philosophy from Aristotle to Kant! However, if we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we would know the mind of God.”

          The paragraph prior to the one above added a little different slant on the theories mentioned;

          “Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing? Is the unified theory so compelling that it brings about its own existence? Or does it need a creator, and, if so, does he have any other effect on the universe? And who created him?”

          Apparently, Hawking wasn’t aware that D.D. Palmer had already discovered what physicists have been looking for:
          “Grand unified theory (GUT): A theory which unifies the electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces.” Principle 1. Universal Intelligence! I wonder if he now says, why didn’t I think of that?

          Chiropractic Philosophy suffers from what I have read about, which is:
          “Conservatism bias
          Like the confirmation bias, it has to do with the maintenance of beliefs. It implies favoring prior information over new information because prior information supports our beliefs and new information may have the tendency to shatter them.”

          Let’s face it… none of us in the chiropractic profession are scientists, especially physicists. This is rather obvious with the dogma that is recited. We like to selectively quote science that supports our philosophical position, that’s about as close as we come.

          I like the story in Chapter 1 of the Hawking book:

          “A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.” The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on.” “You’re very clever, young man, very clever,” said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down!””

        • Claude Lessard 11/20/2015, 1:14 pm:

          Rich,

          Thank you for your comment. I get what you posted above. It is true that DD and BJ had no idea of the knowledge that we have today. More credit given to them to have developed a consistent solid platform for chiropractic to stand on… namely, the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science. Once you assume the major premise, then with rational logic, and mostly deductive reasoning, we move down the line of the subsequent 32 principles, to eventually conclude the chiropractic objective which is to: LACVS for a full expression of the innate FORCES of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD. If your basic premise is true and your reasoning is true, then the conclusion is also true. On the other hand, if your basic premise is false and your reasoning is true, then the conclusion will also be false. I have gotten that very clearly for a long long time. As you mention above, my life long inquiry reveals my position which is that the law of organization and the major premise are true until proven false. It makes sense to me. Perhaps it does not make sense to you. I accept you the way you are. –

          – Yet, we must admit that even when we are trying to be in control, life remains the great unknown to us. What is remarkable is that, as Stephen Hawking BELIEVES, “human beings have an innate drive to make sense of the world”. Whether it is quantum THEORY, string THEORY, chaos THEORY, the THEORY of relativity or the THEORY of chiropractic’s major premise. –

          – Today, we know that the universe is old, large, dynamic, and interconnected. It is about 13.8 billion years old, and some scientists think it could still exist for 100 trillion years. The universe has been expanding since its birth. Our home planet, Earth, far from being the center of the universe, revolves around the Sun, a medium sized star in a medium sized galaxy, the Milky Way, which contains about 200 billion stars. The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years in diameter. Furthermore, it is one of 100 billion galaxies in the universe. We do not appear to be the center of anything. It is the law of organization that maintains the e/matter of the universe in existence by configuring electrons, protons and neutrons and their velocities into specific structures of e/matter. –

          – Our educated intelligence can only process the information know up to our time… and perhaps intuit further. Therefore, based on the known, we move forward toward the unknown that may be discovered later on. Our THEORIES are good for now and many be discarded soon. WHO knows, perhaps the THEORY of quantum entanglement (EPR paradox) will move ALL of us into the realization that the THEORETICAL power of the chiropractic objective might be working along with the THEORETICAL power of Einstein’s relativity or with the THEORETICAL power of spiritual prayer… after all, the universe is one and whole. –

          – Be it as it may, it seems to me that when Hawking mentioned that all, philosophers, scientists,(and may I add, theologians and objective chiropractors), and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist, (may I point out to all of you again that chiropractic is INCLUSIVE of EVERYONE regardless of creed, beliefs systems, culture, language, etc…), that perhaps the time has come to realize that… rather than fight for each other’s “rightness”, that chiropractors practicing the chiropractic objective (OCs) might consider having a dialogue, as I mentioned in past posts, with the philosophers, the scientists, the theologians and the psychologists. WHO knows WHAT could become known of the unknown and HOW we would relate to NEW “known” all together, without condemnation of course. You may ask “WHY bother”. It is me WHO choose to ask all of you: WHY NOT??? –

          – Thank you Rich for your answer as to what you practice. It me WHO choose to accept you as you choose to be and as you choose not to be. I reiterate that I want to get whatever you have to say to me.

  7. Claude Lessard 11/22/2015, 2:05 am:

    Rich,

    When you post something like: “If you really understand something like Quantum Entanglement, my hat is off to you. I do know, neither the Palmers or Stephenson would have any clue of such things, when Einstein didn’t.”… let me ask you, do you really mean what you think? –

    – Look, you and I, and all the other people who are reading this blog, are entangled with the web. We can share information almost instantly despite of great distances and what we are thinking. I maintain that we cannot invent that which we are not made of. We are holons of the universe. We reflect only that which we are. How can we communicate we each other this way, if the universe is not communicating the same way? DD. BJ, Einstein did not get it… as the information was not available to them. You and I, however, we not only have that information, we use it right now! Quantum entanglement with non-local reality, you and I, proving the EPR paradox with Bell’s uncertainty principle with its local variable theory. If you really want to know what is real, then all there is for you to do is to be uncertain. ;-

    • Rich Story 11/23/2015, 2:53 am:

      Claude,

      Thanks for your insightful remarks. I acknowledge there seem to be as many theories as there are theorists looking for answers in their quest to understand the nature of the universe and everything in it. Whether we are proving Bell’s theorem or not, I would guess, would fall under their debate. Just grasping the scale of what these scientists are investigating stretches my ability of understanding on the subject. I find it quite amazing that behind all of this inquiry, the human brain is not only able to study the properties of the universe and investigate such abstract concepts, it also belongs to the only species that has the ability to study itself. As your holon analogy suggests, we are part of the whole and more significant than our parts, which again is a product of the forces of matter assimilated in an organized manner as a result of millions of years of organic evolution and not answered by the Innate intelligence concept.

      Seems like this will be an endless debate, sort of a chicken or the egg argument. I know there are many unknowns yet to be discovered in the search for all the answers, but I am not inclined to accept the Intelligence of the universe answer for all of the remaining unknowns, just as religion accepts the god reason for the questions that have not been answered by science yet. I guess one my doubts or concerns of continuing the intelligence factor as the driving force for the chiropractic profession going forward, is a main reason for it’s decline. Communicating to the public that the only reason for chiropractic is to correct vs, so they may be a fuller expression of their potential and that somehow, their physical function, which includes pain, discomfort or any other abnormal physical function, should not be relevant or important to them. The average patient I know, has no idea how this is a benefit to them and why they should pay for this abstract philosophy when they have nothing physical to place a value on. If we are honest as a profession, we really haven’t contributed any substantial change in the health and well being of the population besides reducing neck and back pain. Chiropractic patients get the same infirmities and die at the same ages as the rest of the population. I feel chiropractic does have the potential to improve the quality of life for a lot more people if it focused its attention on postural balance, physiology and function. A human body with proper mechanics and locomotion is a healthier human body. Locating and adjusting a vertebral subluxation just for its sake alone, doesn’t address this need of the patient. Why has massage therapy become so popular with the public? Because it makes them feel better.

      It is my opinion that a chiropractor can be a purist in the strictest sense of the word and preach the story to as many patients as they wish, but pretty much none of their patients will be purists. I would bet a dollar to a doughnut, that if a patient is questioned on why they go to a chiropractor, even a purist DC, the answer would not include being a better expression of what they were meant to be. It’s going to be something physical as the reason.

      I think at this point, I really should refrain from participating any further in these conversations as it is sort of like politics, there will never be any agreement on the subject. Guess that’s why there is vanilla and chocolate.

      • Claude Lessard 11/23/2015, 6:46 pm:

        Rich,

        I got what you posted! I accept the way you choose to be. Ironically, the question I am asking all of those WHO choose to come this week to get their spine checked is: What is it within your physical body that you are most thankful for? I was seeing people at the office this morning (mon.11/23) from 10am to 1pm. So far, out of 35 people I checked today, 32 answered: my innate intelligence. 2 answered: my brain and 1 answered: my spine. –

        Thank you for your input.

        HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!

        • Rich Story 11/24/2015, 11:52 am:

          A Happy Thanksgiving, to you as well!

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