Empiricism

21

Correctly or incorrectly,sometimes perception is people’s reality.

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Posted in: Thinking Straight

This article has 21 comments

  1. JJ Lob 01/13/2017, 1:58 am:

    Sometimes…. I d’say always!

    • William 01/13/2017, 4:36 pm:

      I would say you are correct. There is absolute truth governing the world the misperception and deception can cause delusions. The educated mind is unfortunately easily misled.

      • Joe Strauss 01/17/2017, 3:35 pm:

        “Misperception and deception” as well as empiricism all occur in the educated mind which can be fooled or deluded unless it is based upon absolute truth. 1 Cor. 1:18-25.

    • Joe Strauss 01/17/2017, 3:17 pm:

      Truth is always perceived by A method of perception but not necessarily by the method of empirical perception. The masses can be fooled by anything from a child’s “scratch and sniff”books to demonstrating the need for/value of instant replay. Seeing, (feeling, tasting, smelling,) is often wrongly believing.

  2. David Suskin 01/13/2017, 1:41 pm:

    Really NO perception of the mental impulse. All attained through thought and deductive logic. It the mental impulse real?

  3. David Suskin 01/13/2017, 5:00 pm:

    (typo’s and ?? on previous)
    There is NO physical perception of the mental impulse. It is metaphysical (immaterial). We have arrived at this reality as established within the 33P’s, using a deductive process (thought and logic) The Chiropractic Objective is, in essense, a non-perception. We arrive at it’s actualization through the application of logic. What we see (matter) are the effects of causes we do not see (laws, force, intelligence, 1st cause, etc.)

    • Joe Strauss 01/17/2017, 3:52 pm:

      There is no perception of the physical except for its physical manifestations. Unfortunately most chiropractors seem to think the cessations of symptoms is the manifestation of the restoration of the mental impulse which may or may not (given LOM) occur.”Getting sick people well” is not the chiropractic objective.

      • David Suskin 01/17/2017, 4:33 pm:

        In one of your commentaries books (Perhaps on “Bigness of Fellow Within”), etc. you state (paraphrased): An Adjustment is a Constant.
        Subluxation is a Constant.
        Do we ever really know whether someone (practice member-patient), has actually received an Adjustment. We know we have offered the External Invasive Force, Educated Universal Forces, Adjustic Force, to achieve an adjustment. Some techniques administer 1 place of Force, some multiple. At some point during the visit, we Stop, Complete our efforts, Dismiss the PM.
        Did we accomplish our Objective? (LACVS-Period).
        If you are either adjusted or not, How do we know?
        We don’t!
        We assume and figure we have implemented enough educated external forces for the day so that the body has a chance to correct itself.
        yes/no/opinion

  4. Art Rehe, D.C. 01/17/2017, 5:22 pm:

    David Suskin states “Did we accomplish our Objective? (LACVS-Period).
    If you are either adjusted or not, How do we know?
    We don’t!
    We assume and figure we have implemented enough educated external forces for the day so that the body has a chance to correct itself.”

    Advanced Chiropractic techniques include various “indicators”, (before, during and after tests) that demonstrate that you have delivered a proper adjustment. For example, weak muscles demonstrating increased strength and control, spinal muscle tenderness due to over
    accumulation of lactic and pyruvic acids caused by muscle stress due to spinal misalignments and subluxation showing reduction or elimination of that tenderness, better vision demonstrated by pre and post eye chart tests, Spinal corrective changes demonstrated by measurement of spinal bone positions on repeat x-rays, such as demonstrated in Hugh Logan’s Textbook of Logan Basic Methods, and many more such before and after tests are available. It has always amazed me that every single Chiropractor I have trained in 50 years in the profession was unaware of these simple tests. What are the schools teaching?

    If you do not understand and use these types of proof of effectiveness tests you really don’t know whether you are accomplishing your goal of subluxation correction

  5. David Suskin 01/17/2017, 6:03 pm:

    Oh I understand tests. and criteria that you or I use to determine correction.
    Bottom line?
    Misalignment, nerve pressure, foramen occusion.
    What are the signs of interference to a mental impulse?
    Theory is all we have. And that’s good
    Philosophically, It’s all speculation.
    Did you ever adjust someone and then according to your technique you did not accomplish what you intended? Do it again perhaps with some variation and then determine that Now you did?
    I accept that.
    But the CONSTANT of being subluxated or not, to my thinking
    Is unknowable. Perhaps assumed or attempted or sought after but in the end. It’s a good guess.
    Perhaps that is enough. That is what we look to accomplish with practice of the art and science

    • Bryson 01/23/2017, 8:34 pm:

      “But the CONSTANT of being subluxated or not, to my thinking
      Is unknowable. ”

      Then why bother adjusting at all? Introducing a force into a non-subluxated spine is manipulation and not the practice of chiropractic. I can’t believe the nonsense of not knowing if someone is subluxated or not.

  6. David Suskin 01/24/2017, 3:32 pm:

    If being subluxated is dependent on their being interference to the mental impulse, and a mental impulse is non-material, metaphysical, non-observable, then how do you know, philosophically speaking that a technique (physical), is truly detecting the existence and removal (completely), of a subluxation (mental impulse interference). Philosophically.
    Techniques are all based on physical metrics, mechanical metrics. I get that, and I use that. Isn’t that why say, subluxation removal happens thru innate’s actions, not ours. We can only assume. And we can KNOW, philosophically, that NORMAL presents innate intelligence as perfectly and absolutely doing 100% it’s perfect best to engage it’s fullest expression of forces in matter within LOM

  7. Art Rehe, D.C. 01/24/2017, 6:08 pm:

    David,

    I hold a lot of respect for you folks and your “Objective Straight Chiropractic” and keeping Chiropractic pure. I wish all chiropractors would follow your lead.

    But I feel you are way behind the times in the way you find and correct subluxations, and mistaken in not selling the real benefits of good quality Chiropractic to the public. I feel that following Reggie’s ideas, lost a lot of chances to improve Chiropractic procedures. I remember watching his Spring Valley office procedures, and the casual way the doctors would answer the patient, being adjusted when that patient asked a question. Not good chiropractic salesmen. Which is why they always needed to keep bringing in new patients to replace the ones they were losing. Patients don’t care what Chiropractic is all about, or even how cheap it is. They just care about what good Chiropractic will do for them. You have to keep demonstrating the immediate benefits, that occur at the adjustic visit, as well as the long term benefits as they stay under your care…for life.

    A subluxated spine will result in nerve occlusion, which in turn causes aberrant function. To identify a subluxation, all you need do is determine an aberrant function and test by gently urging the suspected subluxated motor unit into different lines of drive and determine the effect on the discovered aberrant function. In other words, find something not working as it should, such as a cervical range of motion restriction, and test the vertebrae that could affect the nerves causing that function, by pushing the vertebra in different directions using the spinous or transverses, until you find the vertebral position that reduces or alleviates the restriction.

    Now you know where the subluxation lies, and what distortional pattern it holds, and can adjust it with skill, (or as most chiropractors unfortunately do, with force, not a good thing to do, btw when you can actually move the bone into position with no more than 11 oz. of force, note that more than 11 oz force has been shown to harm) and retest the Ce ROM to see if you have succeeded in eliminating the nerve occlusion. When you have adjusted that and ROM is normal, both you and the patient will know you have done something right and beneficial.

    You have communicated with innate, found the cause and corrected it and you know what and why you have done what you did. And so does the patient.

    One last thing I would mention. The method I have described, as well as the adjustic thrust, have long since been superceded by better, gentler and simpler ways of true spinal correction, provable by x-ray and results. I feel that anyone using palpation to “find “ subluxations and “correcting” them with force, “which II uses to actually do the adjustment”does more harm than good in the long run.

    I advocate less theory talk and more skill.

    I have not meant to offend anyone here. I just want Chiropractors to improve so that I can be proud of my profession

  8. David Suskin 01/24/2017, 7:00 pm:

    Art,
    I accept that there is a physical manifestation of subluxation (p17.Cause and Effect, p29.Interference with Transmission of Innate Forces – There can be interference with the transmission of Innate forces.).
    Our theories to identify and correct subluxation involve educated intelligence – empiricism/induction/mechanism.
    As a Chiropractor I use Activator technique and it’s analysis ONLY. It does exactly what you are explaining. I have not seen a more objective means to detect and correct subluxation. But it IS a theory (balanced legs, no positive isolation tests, vertebral challenge, etc.) ROM works too. I get it.
    Here’s the thing. And this might be ALL, my thing. As soon as we (I) embark on this mechanistic procedure, we (I) tend to slip, unchecked, into defining Chiropractic as a treatment or therapeutic vehicle, (correction of subluxation yes) and if not we (I) become either engage in discussing theories, NOT facts, of what, where and how nerve interference occurs and is (neurothalipsis, dysarthria, dysafferentation, nerve interference theories, etc. etc.), until we (I) plunge into the land where the Triune does NOT exist to define Life, Chiropractic has nothing to do with Life (Triune), except it’s mechanistic observations, obscuring it’s most valuable and unique position of vitalism.
    Can a corpse be subluxated?
    Listen, I don’t pop and pray. Never did. Never will. But I like to be accurate and tell the truth. Always. Defining Chiropractic thru mechanistic metaphors, nerve charts, etc. spins ME into the same place. MUSCULOSKELETAL AILMENTS, and an old tired, inaccurate Meric Chart explanation. I just can’t do it. My technique, as I have stated is solid with regards to what I surmise as a good Guess to an approach to detect and remove subluxation. But my own ability to span a physical and metaphysical reality like Chiropractic enigmatically defeats my own purpose and understanding.
    That’s obvious 🙂

    • Art Rehe, D.C. 01/25/2017, 3:07 am:

      Ah yes, Activator Method.
      I first studied that with Dr. Lee, in 1972, who actually discovered that technique and developed it. Arlan learned that from Dr. Lee and added the activator, which made a hit because most chiropractors couldn’t adjust and when the dental tool was used could kind of adjust; they only knew how to manipulate. Of course today’s version of Activator Method is much more complicated than the very good original version of the technique. (Btw, you might try an experiment. The next time you identify a subluxation of a vertebra, instead of hitting it with the activator on the “high side”, use light thumb pressure of about 4 to 6 ounces to exaggerate the subluxation on the low side and WITHOUT thrusting recoil off the contact. Watch as innate repositions the vertebra making the adjustment for you, as you folks like to say. You might have to do this 2 or 3 times when you are new at this, until you get skilled at using that technique.)

      I have trouble with your enigmatic metaphysical conundrum. Is it really important if the theories and thoughts of people dead for over 50 years, are mysterious or not. I think of myself and try to introduce others into being successful Chiropractors. You know, the kind who fill a practice in their first 6 months in practice and don’t have to look for new patients all the time.

      For that goal you need to understand that reducing nerve occlusion with chiropractic works.
      It works whether the theories propounded by thinkers in the past were right or wrong. Or wrote a text book to try to explain their understanding of chiropractic to the class they were teaching. (Had to have something to teach and test, in order to justify the tuition.)

      If you are able to consistently correct nerve occlusion, whether caused by nerve root impingement in the vertebral foramen, occlusion caused by a contracted muscle, impinging tendon, ligament, oedema, etc. then you can offer human kind something they can not get elsewhere.

      You fellows are against telling people that properly done, chiropractic can get health related results that no other profession can match. Why? What are you afraid of?

      Do you think that will put you on the spot to perform and you’re afraid that you can’t? Do you think that chiropractic won’t work, will let you down? Restrict you to musculoskeletal cases only? Maybe, if you are using a substandard method.
      Maybe you need a new better method of practice.

      When I was in practice I handled all kinds of cases, including “Medical emergencies”. I went into a hospital, with the patient’s M.Ds. (who had determined that the patient had less than 12 hours to live) approval and brought that patient out of a eight day long coma, within 1 hour of his first ever adjustment. He lived another 7 years.

      T.B., heart disease, concussion, influenza,( epilepsy, chronic migraines, and post traumatic scoliosis case was a WC case from Alaska, A totally disabled patient [I’m in CA]( a former patient. When she healled herself under my care, and could resume her life, she was offered a $9,000 settlement but got $120,000 after I was deposed and showed and explained the case from a chiropractic standpoint and spinal correction x-rays taken over 8 months of intensive care. Both attorneys had me try to help them find similar chiropractic care in Alaska. Unfortunately we couldnt find any).

      One of my doctors in his 6 th month of practice, was called to a patient’s house, where the 16 year old son, who had been M.D.Dx’d with spinal meningitis. Took him only 6 hours to turn the case around. Medical misdiagnosis? Maybe?

      Others including one who writes on your board can tell you of the wonders, mysterious or not. Enigmatic/ Who cares.

      My God, the things you could do if you only let yourself. What a ride through life Chiropractic will give you. WOW!

      • Joe Strauss 01/29/2017, 6:49 pm:

        Dr. Rehe, while I respect your right to practice your approach to chiropractic as you choose, in my opinion it is of the traditional approach and not the non-therapeutic/objective approach. It is possible to use an activator “tool” to correct vs to enable the forces of the innate intelligence of the body to be more fully expressed. I have used it myself on occasion for that objective but the “activator method” (and your explanation) seems to focus on the “results” of getting sick people well.

  9. David Suskin 01/29/2017, 10:44 pm:

    I strongly disagree. Activator method focuses on one thing. The LACVS Period. Ones intent, viewpoint, explanation, utilization and delivery in the practice of, determines ones objective.
    All methods lend themselves to slipping and checking.

  10. Art Rehe, D.C. 01/30/2017, 12:32 am:

    The story is told of Palmer quoting “Early to bed, early to rise, Work like h-ll and advertise.”

    Chiropractors, like any professionals, want to be successful. For the Chiropractor that means seeing as many patients (you would say “practice members”) as possible and offering a service that is seen as beneficial and essential by potential and active patients. The benefit the average patient is in your office hoping to get, is health improvement.

    Since the beginning of my career in 1969, when the AMA public Anti-chiropractic attacks were constant and Chiropractic was at it’s lowest point ever, the big problem in Chiropractic is getting new patients and keeping them.

    Patients do not care what our philosophy is, or whether we have a smiling face. They care about the results that Chiropractors are able to produce for them, relative to their health issues and if Chiropractic is “dangerous”. If you can not produce a safe, effective result that the patient wants, what good are you? And the results the patient judges by is the beneficial changes he can see and feel. If you do not fulfil his wants, he will soon be gone. (Yes I know that even horrible chiropractors have a few patients who stick with them for no sensible reason, but I’m talking of what is needed to be successful, without constant need to try to get new patients.

    I only mention the improvement in patient’s condition, provably resulting from application of proper Chiropractic procedures.

    Most Chiropractors were never taught proper Chiropractic procedures to start with, because the people running the schools did not really know them. The school I attended was run by people who had been in Chiropractic for many years. The president of the school, since 1915. It was a really “straight philosophy school”. And highly respected by the straight Chiropractic community.

    Each of the instructors ran a “practice”, if you want to call seeing ten or fewer patients per working day a practice. And that was on their best days. They did help people, but no where near what they could have done if they had been properly taught. And they were “teaching us”?

    When I graduated I knew that I wasn’t going to be practicing the procedures that school taught us. So while still in school I looked around and found a very gentle, effective, easy to learn and do method/technique.

    My son had become sick with what an M.D. would diagnose as influenza. Fever, headache, ache all over, etc. Applying this new to me technique, in less than 30 minutes all symptoms were gone and he wanted to go out and play (he’d only been sick for 2 days.). My daughter was in an accident and concussed, one pupil dilated, the other constricted, severe headache, vertigo, nausea. A five minute adjustment and all symptoms were gone. Next door neighbor’s 8 year old son, epileptic averaging 2 Grand Mal attacks per week over a 6 year history, on a greater than adult dosage of dilantin. I adjusted him once because his mother begged me to(I’d passed the boards but did not have my license in hand yet.), and arranged for him to be attended by a Logan Basic practitioner. (No I do not use Logan Basic myself, but Logan came the closest to what I was using.) From his first adjustment on had no more attacks.

    Like so many other doctors I started attending Technique seminars like Gonstead , Activator, etc. No way was I going to do that stuff to my patients.

    While in school I had been running a sales business which had me out in the field supervising my agents. I had visited Chiropractic offices whenever I ran across them and talked to the D.Cs. running them. The average practitioner had no real understanding of his profession, and sadly relied on some sort of P.T. like massage or hot pacs and then gave crude spinal manipulations. Of course they restricted themselves to musculo-skeletal problems. They knew they were not effective for anything else.

    So to summarize I feel that your stance of refusing to discuss the health care results that Chiropractic properly done can be expected to produce keeps your fellow doctors from building the most successful practice possible and may well affect the public attitude to modern Chiropractic. Yes we need to stay straight and not mix anything into a Chiropractic practice, but we shouldn’t hide our results under a bushel either.

    I respect you and think I understand you (I’ve attended your seminar and spoken with you.) (Btw that was a typical dirty trick the CA state board played on you and us, when they approved your seminar for license renewal and then reversed themselves after you had been here. Especially when your seminar was refreshing and well received by your audience.)

    Chiropractic works for health related issues, if we don’t let the public know that, what are we to do, Go to bed early, Rise Early and ………….?

    Thank you for giving me the opportunity to answer, here. I was afraid that you would kick me off the board, but gentleman that you are you didn’t. (;-)

  11. Art Rehe, D.C. 01/31/2017, 7:46 pm:

    David,

    On 1/24 you wrote “Here’s the thing. And this might be ALL, my thing. As soon as we (I) embark on this mechanistic procedure, we (I) tend to slip, unchecked, into defining Chiropractic as a treatment or therapeutic vehicle, (correction of subluxation yes) and if not we (I) become either engage in discussing theories, NOT facts, of what, where and how nerve interference occurs and is (neurothalipsis, dysarthria, dysafferentation, nerve interference theories, etc. etc.), until we (I) plunge into the land where the Triune does NOT exist to define Life, Chiropractic has nothing to do with Life (Triune), except it’s mechanistic observations, obscuring it’s most valuable and unique position of vitalism.

    I have to admit that I have trouble understanding what you mean here, what your point is. Could you do me the favor of explaining your thought in simpler terms?

    Thanks, Art

  12. David Suskin 01/31/2017, 9:42 pm:

    Art,
    What is vitalism and does it pertain to chiropractic?

  13. Art Rehe, D.C. 02/01/2017, 4:05 am:

    David,

    Vitalism is a doctrine that life is self determined, and not just explicable by the laws of physics and chemistry. (Basically that there are energy fields that control the activities of life, of which we do not yet have adequate understanding though many of these fields do seem to relate to nerve function. )

    Does vitalism have relationship to Chiropractic?

    That question has more than one answer, depending upon what you feel pertains to Chiropractic.

    My answer, which I teach all my doctors and patients is encompassed in the understanding that the living body is the only thing that can heal the body’s wounds and illnesses. No one (not even the great and wonderful me) can cure anyone else of so simple a thing as a cut finger…but the body knows how to do that and will, as long as there is no interference to that function. We do know that nerve interference is an interference to all kinds of functions, and our job as Chiropractic doctors is to reduce nerve interference, including mechanical interference (neurothlipsis) as much as possible, allowing the body to work at the best possible function available at this time.

    The ideas of vitalism are easy to demonstrate since these energy fields can readily be tested and observed.

    For example if you are trained in the use of the Toftness type radiation detector you can identify some of these energy fields, sometimes radiating several yards from the experimental subject or patient..

    If you are trained in Manual Muscle Testing, you can demonstrate some of these energy fields also, sometimes radiating several yards from the subject.

    For example, if you are trained in manual muscle testing, if you have a surrogate stand some feet away from an injured subject, and test any of the surrogate’s muscles, you will find the surrogate testing weak whenever he is close enough to the subject to pick up the disturbed energy caused by the injured subject. (I have done these experiments and they work even if the surrogate and subject are on opposite side of a curtain or door.)

    Kirllian Photography also demonstrates these energy fields, and among other tings, relates them to future growth and development of a child, for example. Ie: capturing , on film, the outline of a child’s limb before it has fully grown, or capturing the outline of the complete leaf although the leaf has had a portion cut away.

    An interesting test using MMT is to test the subject facing different quadrants of the compass. Notice that there are different degrees of muscle strength and function as he faces different points. Apparently as he experiences the interplay of energy fields of the planet/surround, and his own energy fields,

    For possible use in Chiropractic practice, if you place your one hand 1 or 2 inches over an area of neuro/spinal distress (neurothlipsis for example) and test a strong hamstring or posterior cervical muscle of the PM/subject/patient with your other hand, you will often demonstrate a dramatic change in muscle function and strength. This usually identifies a subluxation/neurothlipsis. I have often pulled patients out f a elusive, severe, even life threatening condition using the above procedure.

    The next time you are in the grocery store, have a friend or store clerk place his hand over organic produce and test an easily tested muscle such as the infraspinatus, and then over inorganic produce and note the difference in muscle function. Be careful not to allow your preconceived ideas to affect the test. Just concentrate on the MM test, making sure you are doing it correctly. Don’t allow yourself to think about what the test is designed to show.

    You ask some thought provoking, interesting questions. I hope that I am answering them for you without causing too much confusion.

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