Let’s hear your opinions!!

31

Can research and chiropractic philosophy co-exist?… Not if the “philosophy” is traditional chiropractic (getting sick people well). They represent differentobjectives and make it an either/or situation. We don’t know whether the objective straight chiropractic model can.We do not know…yet. Perhaps due to limitations of matter we will never get a chance to find out?

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Posted in: Thinking Straight

This article has 31 comments

  1. Matthew Alvord 07/22/2017, 1:30 am:

    As long as everything follows the philosophy the profession representing the philosophy will be fine.

  2. Richard Doble Jr., D.C. 07/22/2017, 4:07 am:

    It depends on the practitioner’s skills or how effective the practitioner can facilitate an adjustment and keep their patients free of vertebral subluxation. I believe if chiropractic is done correctly it will get many sick people well and as time goes by our technology will perpetuate those methods that work best at removing the interference. Maybe the rack ’em and crack ’em 100 a day will go by the wayside.

  3. William 07/22/2017, 5:46 pm:

    Dr Su did research to prove Chiropractic back in the 1970s. What he proved is that research begets more research. The nature of chiropractic in any ilk makes research impossible due to the lack of ways to do comparative double blind research since “sham” chiropractic is not possible. The solution is to continue to prove chiropractic by delivering the product without the clutter of symptoms. It works and only the uninformed or ill advised cannot see that.

    • Joe Strauss 07/24/2017, 12:52 am:

      as I understand Dr. Suh’s research, it was done to demonstrate empirically, what had been already established deductively (physical interference with a nerve effects expression of innate forces.. I watched a video of that research and, a ICS Board made the comment (on the video) that if it did not “prove” chiropractic he would have to change his philosophy. He obviously did not but it lead to :proving chiropractic by medical standards.

  4. Matt Allen 07/22/2017, 9:21 pm:

    It seems to me that if we keep the research in the realm of the 33 principles and adaptabilty then research and philosophy can not only co-exist, but they both thrive.

    • Joe Strauss 07/24/2017, 1:01 am:

      Thank you for your input Mike. I’m not sure how one would research the 33 principles. Any suggestions? But more important how would you remove the variables that would prevent their validation/proof/corroboration?

      • Claude Lessard 07/24/2017, 2:52 pm:

        As was suggested in many previous posts on this blog, research of the 33 principles requires the acceptance of the major premise, (which ALL chiropractors embrace). Then demonstrating the FALSE rationale, FALSE logic and thereby the FALSE conclusion of the chiropractic objective. –

        – Now that we know that E=MC2… meaning that energy is comprised of electrons, protons and neutrons with different configurations and velocity, which makes energy and matter one and the same. –

        – Now that we know that FORCE, in chiropractic is INFORMATION, it behooves the researchers to find out the nature of INFORMATION and DATA PROCESSING when it comes to the body of a “LIVING thing”. –

        – The innabilitties of the reaseachers to show the lack of rational logic and faulty reasoning, shouldn’t itself be something that they keep researching in this fashion.

        – Do YOU think that the 33 would stand that kind of research?

        • Joe Strauss 07/24/2017, 3:44 pm:

          Claude, do yo mean Einstein’s Theory of Relativity?

          • Claude Lessard 07/26/2017, 11:30 am:

            No, Joseph. Einstein’s THEORY of relativity is ONLY pointing to the reality of e/matter is ALL its forms. Einstein’s THEORY relates ONLY to energy/matter which is physical ONLY. –

            – It’s INFORMATION that is the nature of FORCE in chiropractic… not energy/matter. Two metaphysical components of the TRIUNE: intelligence and force That leaves energy/matter as the ONLY physical component of the TRIUNE. –

            – To OC, it is crystal clear!

      • Matt Allen 07/25/2017, 3:59 am:

        Joe, I’m not sure one could research the entire 33 Principles, but possibly the two that could be researched would be:
        Principle 21.   The   Mission   of   Innate   Intelligence   -‐   The   mission   of   Innate   Intelligence   is   to   maintain   the   material   of  the   body   of   a   “living   thing”   in   active   organizaon.
        Principle 30. The   Causes   of   Dis-‐ease   -‐   Interference   with   the   transmission   of   Innate   forces   causes   incoordinaon   or  dis-‐ease.

        Looking at HRV or spinal thermal patterns in subluxated vs non-subluxated could be a start. Or if there was some other test showing the body to be able to be in active organization or coordination. I’m not exactly sure what is all available,

        Adaptabily seems to sum up the central theme of chiropractic according to Dr. Sinnott’s Textbook of Human Adaptability. Researching adaptability might be a place to start.

        • Joe Strauss 07/25/2017, 1:05 pm:

          Matt, probably the majority of the 33 Principles are common sense, visibly (empirically) evident or have been in some way already established and observed/identified by BJ and others. I once said in a talk, that the “test’for innate intelligence is to hold a $.30 mirror under the nose of patient. If you see manifestation of breath, they need to have their spine checked. That’s P. # 21. I do not know what HRV means but innate forces are meta-natural like innate intelligence and do the same thing as the mirror, only demonstrate a physical manifestation of innate forces.
          I haven’t seen Rob Sinnot’s book yet. It is not the human part of man that has the ability to adapt but the being part, the innate intelligence of the body. I’m sure he explains that in his book.

  5. David Suskin 07/25/2017, 2:57 pm:

    Looking at lets say DNA, its design might be a manifestation of intelligence, innate intelligence, but it’s function has been has been identified as mechanical.
    The nervous system’s function basically has been identified as a vehicle to transmit impulses that basically control the actions of muscles, smooth and striated. These actions may be a manifestation of intelligent design, but it’s function is mechanical.
    Chiropractic has identified another function for the nervous system, that being p23. A conveyor of innate forces. This, from an empirical study of, has posed to me a point of speculative quandary.
    I am not the only COTB’er that has brought this up.
    David Koch in his book, speaks of ii using the nervous system, but also suggests ii usage of let’s say the meridian (acupuncture) system.
    My point is how is it that we arrive at the nervous system being the conveyor of that which adapts universal forces and matter for use in the body, so that all parts of the body will have co-ordinated action for mutual benefit?

    Is it the physical function of the nervous system that at it’s root, it’s integrative CNS origins, that from what I can see COURSELY coordinates, or is it this other subtle ability to pass innate forces to directed tissues that allows it to coordinate FINELY, with the element of living motion? And if that is the case isn’t this speculative at best?

    I always have problems, conceptually, or should I say to fully embrace the Chiropractic Truth (33Ps), completely. because of this
    Physical to Metanatural (metaphysical) interface.
    I’m such a pain in the ass. Sorry. But I know, if I don’t fully get it, others don’t either.

    If the 33P’s was complete deductive perhaps I could, but it is not. It has empirical elements (like the above), and I just cannot take the 100% leap of faith. Perhaps there is Still error in my logic, beyond what would be called common sense.

    • Claude Lessard 07/26/2017, 11:33 am:

      David,

      Principle 23 deals with the function of innate intelligence not the nervous system. The innate intelligence of a tree adapts universal forces without a nervous system, so for a flower, an amoeba cell as well. 😉

      • David Suskin 07/26/2017, 12:28 pm:

        I agree and understand.
        We as Chiropractors have theorized intellectual adaptation leading to the mental impulse as what we call the “Normal Complete Cycle”.
        It involves what I’ll call a phenomenon in vertebrates, which uses the Nervous System as a conveyor of these impulses, fulling the mission of the innate intelligence. This is an assumption, an empirical conjecture?
        Yes, the nervous system has physiological functions that mechanistically perform a type of control, physically, stimulating actions of body parts. But the mental impulse is NOT this control action, but we theorize it as a co-ordinating action, intoto (in wholeness integration, adio, etc. )
        How do we arrive at this additional function of the nervous system, 100% that IT is the transmitter of the Mental Impulse?
        eg. We can remove nerves from the body, not all, but many (blocking them (injection, surgically, etc.) and Still Parts function, integrate homeostatically. But yes I know. this really is not the gist.
        I agree, philosophically, we have deduced this vitalism, this innate intelligence which drives IT”S mission to be expressed by matter.
        Yes, I understand this. But our theories of how and THAT it is honed in
        on the nervous system to perform that mission.
        How do we Know this? Deductively? Arrive at this through our Mission Statement P1?
        It’s all theory (The Normal Cycle)? It’s speculation? Where is the deduction that points to the nervous system and that describes the actions of the mental impulse through what we call the “Normal Cycle”
        100%

      • Joe Strauss 07/26/2017, 3:35 pm:

        You are correct Claude and its something we all need to be reminded about, when you write, “Principle 23 deals with the function of innate intelligence not the nervous system”. that is a very important point which the TSC with their research appear to overlook with their emphasis on the focus on correcting the VS. Our emphasis should not be on chiropractic and its relationship to the innate intelligence of the body and its relationship to the nervous system. As you point out, flowers and amoebas have a triune of life (IFM). Its just that their triunes do not have a nerve system (hey are not vertebrates, that’s why we don’t adjust them). We are all about how the triune is affected by vertebral subluxation, which we and only we correct, at least at this point in time. Some of us even adjust other vertebrates (dogs,cats, horses) because their nerve systems have the same LOM, the vertebral subluxation. Thanks.

  6. David Suskin 07/26/2017, 3:53 pm:

    If the spinal column did not contain the nervous system would we still thrust into it? No.
    So it IS the nervous system that we focus on.
    Innate Intelligence? Triune?
    Deducted? Yes! Therefore True.
    Innate intelligence >> nervous system >> mental impulse??
    Speculation if it’s empirically derived. It’s a theoretical guess unless
    I’ve missed it.

    • Joe Strauss 07/27/2017, 4:27 pm:

      It is more than just speculation, perhaps not to the level of a principle but enough to the create a profession. Notice we do not say disease but DIS-EASE or the only cause of DIS-EASE just the one that OSC addresses. I would suggest that TSC (getting sick people well) is speculative, the chiropractor hoping that it gets the sick person well. We also do not maintain that VS or DIS-EASE is the only cause but that the vertebral subluxation is one cause that we address. We do not focus on injury/diseases of the nerve system just VS which only occurs in the spine. Does that answer your question?

  7. David Suskin 07/27/2017, 5:03 pm:

    Joe,
    Every profession that I can think of, well let’s just say most, bear either a tangible result or that which motivates interaction by professional and customer.
    Anything ANYTHING can be exchanged for services rendered or product by an on purpose sales person and/or susceptible customer.
    TSC exists because it enables the chiropractor professional to grab onto some physical reality that can be exchanged for $. Without a strong belief system.
    And that is what we offer as OSC. A belief system.
    When I read these posts and blue books etc. it concretizes the value of the adjustment to me. But without continual reading and probing it falters because of the difficulty with having purpose for an intangible.
    The patient is also vulnerable to this. Thus the adherence to symptoms and the physical response not the philosophical understanding.
    Reading your chiropractic philosophy blue book again, the Normal Cycle, it does hone in on mental impulse and how it relates to nerves, tissue, cells.
    I think this is where there needs more exploration at this physical metanatural junctiion.
    I think you understand where I am coming from.
    Again. Nerves function in coordination on a physical level but we claim they too on a triune maintaining level.
    Different. How do establish that reality and if we do, doesn’t that provide a context by which we can say chiropractic affects you physically, but we just cannot determine how, or can we?
    Am I repeating myself 😁

  8. Claude Lessard 07/27/2017, 5:08 pm:

    David,

    That’s what it means when we say that chiropractic is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from EVERYTHING ELSE. That’s the reason it does NOT fit your level of thinking… it is so radical from what the world knows. You just don’t know that you don’t know…

  9. David Suskin 07/27/2017, 6:15 pm:

    Don’t I know that 😏
    For me the procrasting,
    Has to be perfect, analytical
    Searcher I just continue to grab onto the logic that
    Offers me PROOF

  10. David Suskin 07/27/2017, 6:24 pm:

    But while we’re here Claude don’t you see the dual
    Functionality of the nervous system.
    A physical implementer of controlled muscular coordination and a conveyor of mental impulse coordination.
    They do not mean the same thing. Or do they.
    If not. Where is that link. From whole living body to nerve to tissue cell
    Coordination and fulfillment of innate need.
    I gots to know. The story told over and over is not as strong as the power of outside in investigation of the part to whole thinking with a little born into a medical scientific culture sprinkled on

    • Claude Lessard 07/28/2017, 3:01 pm:

      David,

      Where is the link that the sun will come up tomorrow or will it?’

      Are you telling me that you need to know the solar system’s relationship to the Milky Way for you experience the sun coming up tomorrow or not?

      Why do you accept that the sun will come up WITHOUT empirical proof?
      See how you play your own game?

      • Joe Strauss 07/28/2017, 5:13 pm:

        I think that that is the difference between inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning. Inductive has the conclusion inherent in the protasis, the principle whereas an inductive statement necessitates another corroboration,either empirical or faith/authority. You cannot know that “the sun will come up tomorrow unless you see it (and its not a cloudy day). In fact science says that one day it will burn out (although none of us will be around to empirically observe it). INDUCTION ALSO assumes consistency/regularity or the existence of something else, like the Milky Way which I believe only because of your authority and empirical photographs. It will come up tomorrow unless scientists are all wrong or you believe that clouds prevent it from “coming up” Our chiropractic philosophy is deductive except for its Major Premise which is inductive. It only becomes deductive if the MP is based on another already established truth.. That is why the 32 deductive principles are based on the Major Premise and the MP (Premise def.something on which you base an argument)is based upon a faith/theological/religious concept-God and why BJ felt he had to step out of chiropractic philosophy and enter “religion” to demonstrate the validity of the MP and call it God, making it no longer chiropractic, but theology/religion. Okay, I’m back into faith/theology but you (or David) started it!(:

        • David Suskin 07/28/2017, 5:47 pm:

          That’s ok Joe. The “swamp-politics” also.
          Yes, I understand the diversion theology can take us into. I approve as long as my long winded circuitous answers are permitted in part.
          Question: you say the 32 deductive principles.
          How is the establishment of p28 and p31 Not Inductive at best and not speculative? Spell it out for this numbskull
          You new I was going to go there. 😏

  11. David Suskin 07/28/2017, 3:44 pm:

    Yes,
    I accept the authority of the sun.
    I do not accept the authority of the nervous system being the prime transmitter of innate intelligence (forces) because of the conflicting inductions surrounding the role of the nervous system versus the endocrine hormonal system and their control of the human organism.
    I see the Mechanism trap. Viewing everything as a physio-chemical event without integrating the event of LIFE, perhaps the overall intent of LIFE to promote Normal. Life. Survival. Therefore the Bias towards creation and maintaining of organization vs the (without Life) event of decay towards universal matter only.
    I see the event.
    Yes it’s a game, but it’s also being able to walk the walk and speak effortlessly with some kind of reality, something that people Will in mass, incline towards, something that I can hang my hat on (physical??)

    Again, within this forum, we seek to find truth, at least truth within Chiropractic.
    The fact is the TSC and Mixing ARE realities. Strong realities. Why?
    WHY?
    Because they are more readily tangible perhaps? Easier to Brand.
    Anyway, I know what you are saying Claude and Joe. Chiropractic apparently is such an easy cognition for you both. For me?
    I look for more clarity to fight the intangible and I guess to my hidden agenda “the medical model” and it’s powerful effect on humanity, both good and bad

    • Claude Lessard 07/28/2017, 10:50 pm:

      David,

      Because educated can do it, doesn’t mean that we should choose to do it! ADIO dammit! ADIO!

      • Claude Lessard 07/28/2017, 11:40 pm:

        David,

        The nervous system has no authority whatsoever. –
        – The sun has no authority whatsoever. –
        – Both are e/matter!!!! –

        – The AUTHORITY od the universe is universal intelligence (pri1). –

        – The AUTHORITY of the body of a “living thing” is innate intelligence (pri20). Again you create your own game and your hidden agenda messes you up real bad. Drop it David. You’ve been at this long enough now. You’re regressing and you don’t even know it. You hurt yourself.
        Marvin Gaye should have sang: Sitting on the fence of the bay wasting time… 😉

  12. David Suskin 07/29/2017, 12:17 am:

    Claude 😪
    I’m always learning
    and
    unlearning 😁

    • Claude Lessard 07/30/2017, 5:12 pm:

      David,

      There’s NO learning or unlearning on the fence… None of that at all…
      ONLY looking in both directions and NEVER taking a stand. I love YOU man ( there I said it publicly)… that’s WHY I say to YOU that on YOUR fence YOU stand for NOTHING. I encourage YOU to jump on the OC side dude… You then will live your life into a NEW way of thinking… it won’t be easy… to follow the road less travelled… TRUST me on this! I WILL WALK YOUR JOURNEY WITH YOU! 🙂 –

      JUMP DAMMIT JUMP –

      – We’re here… YOU won’t be alone anymore… 🙂

      • David Suskin 07/30/2017, 9:09 pm:

        Thank you for the kind words and insights Claude (tough love). 😏

  13. Claude Lessard 07/30/2017, 5:16 pm:

    …. time is moving very fast after 60… stop waisting that time that IS freely given to YOU sitting on the “fence of the bay” 😉

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